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The graffiti of Iruña-Veleia, a free online e-book by J.M. Elexpuru (in Basque)

04 Jul

It has just been published at Elexpuru’s blog Iruña-Veleia, gezurra ala egia? (Iruña-Veleia, lie or truth?) and, while I have just browsed it so far, it seems quite impressive. 

As well as embedding the book here (which will be of limited use to most of my readers, who do not speak any Basque) I’ll translate the index so you can get an idea of what the book is about. Hopefully it will cause enough interest to be translated to English, Spanish and maybe other languages eventually.
Even for those who do not speak any Basque, the many illustrations may be informative. The first chapters, for example, have some historical and linguistic maps not easy to find elsewhere: a map of the Roman conquest of the Basque Country and Aquitaine in page 11 or a quite striking map of Basque-sounding toponyms in the area of the other Veleia, the one of Italy (Ligurian territory) in page 16.
The e-book: Iruña-Veleiako euskarazko grafitoak (The grafitti of Iruña-Veleia) by Juan Mari Elexpuru (philologist):

It is also available in PDF format.

Index (translated):
Prologue

1. The history and histories of Iruña-Veleia
1.1. On the Romans’ conquest
1.2. Tribes or ethnicities
1.3. On the name Iruña-Veleia
1.4. The place
1.5. The city
1.6. The archaeological site
1.7. The finding of the exceptional graffiti
1.8. The materials
1.9. The commission of experts
1.10. The Chartered Government of Araba declares the findings as false and closes the site
1.11. The reports and pictures are published
1.12. The debate heats up
1.13. The trial at the tribunals
1.14. The Chartered Government gives the site to the University of the Basque Country
1.15. The anniversary of the expulsion of Lurmen and the closure of the site (November 19th 2011)
1.16. Eliseo Gil might be a falsifier!

2. The shards with Basque inscriptions
2.1. How many and where
2.2. Photos and transcriptions
2.3. The contents
2.4. The lexicon of the texts

3. The echoes of the Lord’s Prayer

4. On the late Vasconization
4.1. Basque words in Roman inscriptions
4.2. Basque dialects
4.3. Toponymy
4.4. Last comment

5. Reply to the reports of Lakarra and Gorrotxategi
5.1. Context
5.2. Contra facta non valent argumenta
5.3. The article
    The San Millán Regula (1025)
    The Liria cup (IV century BC)
    The Ibarra from Plasenzuela (Cáceres) in a Roman slab (II century AD)
    Illuna and Tichia in an Iruña-Veleia neighborhood
    Toponyms that end in -oña
    Some other tracks
    Some comments on Basque articles
5.4. Phonetics and graphy
    Aspiration (<h>)
    T = TS and TZ
    S and Z
    K and QV (qu)
5.5 Lexicon
    Arapa, arosa, lagun, polita, urdin, gori
5.6. Gamed words
5.7. Pronouns and possessives
    neu, geu, gure, zure, zeu, zutan
5.8. Ergative
5.9. Archaisms and hapaxes
5.10. The consequences
5.11. On the last codas of Lakarra and on the presumed falsifiers
5.12. Visceral talk

6. The reports that support authenticity
    The viewpoint of Koenraad van Driesche

7. On the human damages
    Iruña-Veleia: the history of a nightmare

8. The manifesto for the clarification of the Iruña-Veleia affair

____________________________________________________
Further information in English:
In other languages:

Update (Jul 14): Iruña-Oka municipality publishes online the most complete list of photographs of the exceptional graffiti. It is an important step towards an official recognition of the findings.
Another online archive has been available at Elexpuru’s blog (Flickr archive) for some time now.
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133 responses to “The graffiti of Iruña-Veleia, a free online e-book by J.M. Elexpuru (in Basque)

  1. Octavià Alexandre

    July 5, 2011 at 11:56 am

    The use of the locative zutan 'in the heavens' is particularly interesting, because it implies the word zut (today 'on foot, upright') was used in old Basque for 'sky, heaven', which in modern Basque is zeru, a Romance loanword.

     
  2. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    We do not know exactly what the author meant. The text reads, if I recall correctlt, "gure ata zutan" (our father standing) and my be a misunderstanding of what the Prayer's Lord meant or even an totally unrelated intent. It can also be seen as an apocope of zerutan (common in today's colloquial speech: "zeutan", "zutan"), because, you know, Basques often speak very fast with small mouths. It's an open issue, I guess.

     
  3. Octavià Alexandre

    July 5, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    The text reads, if I recall correctly, "gure ata zutan" (our father standing) and may be a misunderstanding of what the Prayer's Lord meant or even an totally unrelated intent.This is unlikely, because the Prayer's Lord is a good example of a formulaic text to be repeated over and over.It can also be seen as an apocope of zerutan (common in today's colloquial speech: "zeutan", "zutan"), because, you know, Basques often speak very fast with small mouths.LOL. This might be so in modern Basque, but not at that time. I also remind you today's Basque zeru is a Romance loanword.This example illustrates the danger of blindly using modern Basque to translate ancient texts.

     
  4. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    I must scold you (because you should know better): zeru is not from any Romance but from Latin itself (vulgar Latin??): coelum > zeru. No question about this, notably because no Romance in the area (except Gascon maybe) ends words in -u(m/s). Only Basque retains those archaisms (as in liburu) because they are genuine direct Latin loans.

     
  5. Gioiello

    July 5, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Many mistakes in Latin transcriptions:Page 45: In nomine pat[ther], actually: In nomine pat[ris]Page 83: Qui est in caelis, actually: Qui es in caelisPage 104: h(ic) s(itus) s(epultus) e(st), actually: h(oc) s(ito)…Page 106: “servos” for “servus” is in the original, but “o” is little, demonstrating some uncertainty in the pronunciation. ”illUNA”: it seems that “ill” has been added later. “UNA SOCRA” does mean “with the mother-in-law”, and “ill” seems an “illa” (adjective demonstrative ablative feminine singular) which was going to became the article.Uste dut hilarrietako Ibarra eta Illuna izen artikuludunak eta toponimiak eta antroponimiak eskaintzen dituen aztarnak nahiko zantzu sendoak direla erromatarren garaian artikulua bazela pentsatzeko (page 128)If you were so kind to translate…

     
  6. Octavià Alexandre

    July 5, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    I must scold you (because you should know better): zeru is not from any Romance but from Latin itself (vulgar Latin??): coelum > zeru.Really? Then why didn't keep the velar stop as in other words: e.g. cella- > gela?No question about this, notably because no Romance in the area (except Gascon maybe) ends words in -u(m/s).Certainly no Gascon, but there's evidence of a Romance/Basque bilinguism in some areas of the Basque country. For example, Latin fagetu- gave the Romance toponym Faido (Araba), but not far from there there's also Payueta, which shows a Basque adaptation of Romance *fayu 'beech' (cfr. Aragonese fayo)The form zutan is also singular: 'in heaven', not plural.

     
  7. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    "Many mistakes in Latin transcriptions"…It's been argued that they are Vulgar Latin, already transitional towards Romance. There is a Vulgar Latin expert's report somewhere supporting this. ”illUNA”: it seems that “ill” has been added later. “UNA SOCRA” does mean “with the mother-in-law”, and “ill” seems an “illa” (adjective demonstrative ablative feminine singular) which was going to became the article.That is a very interesting idea. Sadly I am not qualified to discuss it. You may want to contact the author (a linguist himself) at his blog. He will surely understand English or Italian (which is so close to Spanish). "If you were so kind to translate…" Ok (it's complicated because it has lots of subordinate sentences in one):"I think that the names with article Ibarra and Illuna and toponymy and anthroponymy offer to think that there was an article in Roman times that has left some quite firm traces".A bit uncertain at some words but this seems to be it. He seems to be talking of the Basque basic "article" -a (intransitive subject's or transitive DO's declension or suffix).

     
  8. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    "Then why didn't keep the velar stop as in other words: e.g. cella- > gela?"ce- is different from coe- Also one may have mutated in one place and one in another… for different reasons, etc. That gela comes from cella is plausible but I'm not sure if correct. It could well be that cella comes from gela (or a similar Liguarian word) as well. If it happened as you say, gela implies a very early loan because ce- was still pronounced /ke/ and not yet with smooth "c" (various sounds). Instead zeru seems to imply already a vulgarization of Latin, which makes sense if it was imported in a Christian context (i.e. late empire). Gela instead would have been borrowed early in the conquest process, maybe in the aftermath of the II Punic war already. That is several centuries of difference. We cannot imagine Latin as a monolithic language, specially not in the late Empire.

     
  9. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    "a Basque adaptation of Romance *fayu 'beech'"There is Basque 'pago' (beech) which may indeed be of Roman origin… though I always wonder why would Basques need to borrow a word for their most common tree. If a true borrowing, ten it is highly anomalous because it would have to be pagu (< phagus) but pagu only exists as "strong, firm", not as the tree. So I always suspect this is indeed one of pre-IE loanwords into Western Indoeuropean, because the PIE steppe zone is not wealthy in beeches, or almost any other deciduous trees. These words must have a non-IE origin. But the beech/phagus/pago case is a very confusing matter, so I'll leave it at this point.

     
  10. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  11. Maju

    July 5, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    "The form zutan is also singular: 'in heaven', not plural".'Zutan' I said before it could mean standing but I was mistaken, that's 'zutik'. 'Zutan' (if not 'z(er)utan') must mean on/in/at you. That's the most straightforward translation. And, while I have not read the book yet, I understand that's what Elexpuru means when he puts this form at the end of a list of pronouns.

     
  12. Gioiello

    July 5, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    I think having understood through the Basque text and other languages easier for me (all the others) that there are some doubts about the authenticity of these findings, but, if my hypothesis is right, it would be a point in favour of its authenticity.We know that in Sicilian (my wife’s dialect) they say “đđoku” for “there”, from Vulgar Latin “illo locu” with the cacuminal sound. “illuna” could be a similar formation from “illa una” and would demonstrate its authenticity.Of course I have written “hoc sito”, but Classic Latin would be “hoc situ”, and a Locativ without “in”, even though for a circumscribed place, isn’t known in Classical use.

     
  13. Octavià Alexandre

    July 6, 2011 at 5:59 am

    a Basque adaptation of Romance *fayu 'beech'"There is Basque 'pago' (beech) which may indeed be of Roman origin…Yes, Basque pago is from Romance fago. There're two different words for 'beech' in Romance, one derived from the adjective (materia) fagea- 'beech wood' > Spanish haya, masculinized in Aragonese fayo, Catalan faig, and another derived from fagu- 'beech' > Aragonese fago, fau.These toponyms give us a precious information. For example, whileFaido 'beech plantation' is derived from Latin fagetu-, this noun isn't found in Spanish or Aragonese, so it must represent the autochtonous Romance of the area. Also Payueta represents the Basque adaptation of the word *fayu or fayo like the one found in Aragonese.'Zutan' (if not 'z(er)utan') must mean on/in/at you. That's the most straightforward translation.This might be correct in MODERN Basque, but not necessarily in an older form of the language. These "translations" don't work at all. Of course, the situation is even worse if we try to "translate" Iberian that way. So I always suspect this is indeed one of pre-IE loanwords into Western Indoeuropean, because the PIE steppe zone is not wealthy in beeches, or almost any other deciduous trees. These words must have a non-IE origin.Yes, IMHO this is derived from a Vasco-Caucasian root. Other names of trees and fruits found in IE languages have also this origin. Perhaps one of these days I'll publish something in my blog.That gela comes from cella is plausible but I'm not sure if correct. It could well be that cella comes from gela (or a similar Liguarian word) as well.I think this is out of the question.

     
  14. Maju

    July 6, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    What about geldi(-tu), to stay, to stop? A room is a place where you stay. Far fetched? Maybe but both words begin the same way and have very related meanings. The imperative form of gelditu is geldi but also gel. We also have odd relations like giltza (key). So I cannot categorically lean myself in either direction. I understand that in doubt the Latin option is the easy one, much more likely to give you applause than criticism but for that very reason I consider it suspicious of conformism, of lack of critical thought. Unlike with pago/fagus, in this case one can argue that pre-Roman Basques did not know the concept of room. Actually this would be untrue (La Hoya homes had rooms) but maybe was not common enough, allowing for Latin to have an impact here as with book or heaven. For me it is an open matter.

     
  15. Octavià Alexandre

    July 6, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    I understand that in doubt the Latin option is the easy oneIMHO there's no room for doubt, as the Latin and Basque agree perfectly in form and meaning.Unlike with pago/fagus, in this case one can argue that pre-Roman Basques did not know the concept of room.This is a different issue. Although old Basque probably a word for 'beech', it was replaced by Romance (not Latin!) fago. This means there was a Romance/Basque bilinguism in the Basque country, and for whatever reason the Romance form was adopted.Also cella isn't simply a room, but a storage room. And contrarily to what you think (your vision is too simplistic), the same concept can be expressed with more than one word. Borrowings don't need always to be justified as new "inventions", but mainly because of the prestige of the people who introduced the word.

     
  16. Maju

    July 6, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    There is room for doubt because it is possible that the loan happened from Vasconic to Latin to begin with. Only if you can track cella to PIE, then this doubt would disappear.A search in Starostin's database only finds another cognate group within IE for cella: Germanic "hall" and the like (PG: *xallō). The chances of this word having a pre-IE origin are huge therefore. "Also cella isn't simply a room, but a storage room".Maybe. The meanings of Wikitionary are: "a small room, a hut, barn, granary" and also "the part of a temple where the image of a god stood; altar, sanctuary, shrine". This is quite different from the Basque meaning of 'gela', which is just 'room' in general. A "cella" (by its Latin meaning) could be an "ola" (workshop) or better an 'etxabe(-ko) ola' (workshop under the house) (> Sp. "chabola": slum-hut), in its mundane meaning. This difference between Basque and Latin meanings reinforces the idea that the word may have danced between languages in the region and Latin being only one destination and not necessarily the origin. "Borrowings don't need always to be justified as new "inventions", but mainly because of the prestige of the people who introduced the word".I think it's more about the bilingual contact zones, which randomly let some words pass, while others never do. It may all be about a word's sonority or ease of pronunciation… But a key issue is that native speakers easily forget the ancestral word, which is easier to happen with unusual or novel concepts (book, heaven) and really hard with quotidian objects (beech, room). It can happen but it implies a very strong influence by the intruding language and a lot of luck.

     
  17. Maju

    July 6, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    In other words: I'm proposing a competing hypothesis in which gela (room) derivates from the same proto-Vasconic root *gel- as geldi(tu), infiltrating from this substrate some of the Western IE dialects eventually evolving into Germanic and Latin. Actually Starostin's proposed PIE (haha! a PIE root from only Latin and Germanic!) root is *k(')eln-, which is notably similar to my proposed Vasconic root *gel-

     
  18. Octavià Alexandre

    July 6, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    There is room for doubt because it is possible that the loan happened from Vasconic to Latin to begin with.I don't think so. There can be absolutely no doubt the Basque word was borrowed from Latin.This difference between Basque and Latin meanings reinforces the idea that the word may have danced between languages in the region and Latin being only one destination and not necessarily the origin.I remind you that Latin homeland is far away the Basque country. However, both the Latin and Germanic words could have been borrowed from Etruscan.In other words: I'm proposing a competing hypothesis in which gela (room) derivates from the same proto-Vasconic root *gel- as geldi(tu), infiltrating from this substrate some of the Western IE dialects eventually evolving into Germanic and Latin.Not really, because Basque *geldi- is actually from the same suffixed PIE root *kel(h1)-t- we find in Germanic *xálɵan-/*xaldaán- 'to hold, to lift' http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/germet&text_number=++1033&root=configActually Starostin's proposed PIE (haha! a PIE root from only Latin and Germanic!) root is *k(')eln-This is another root *k´el- 'to cover, to conceal', which is linked to Germanic *xaljō- 'the Underworld' and Etruscan calu- 'Hades'.

     
  19. Maju

    July 6, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    "I remind you that Latin homeland is far away the Basque country".But close to other areas of Basque toponimy, either in Italy or in the presumable proto-Italic homeland of the Upper Danube. "However, both the Latin and Germanic words could have been borrowed from Etruscan".I remind you that the Tyrsenian homeland is far away from Italy… in Anatolia most probably. While Etruscans and Italics arrived to Italy about the same time surely, it is impossible that Etruscan could have influenced proto-Germanic. "because Basque *geldi- is actually from the same suffixed PIE root *kel(h1)-t- we find in Germanic *xálɵan-/*xaldaán- 'to hold, to lift".To lift rather than hold in all other IE variants. Surely not. Also to stop, to stay put, only has the same meaning as to hold in a figurative or secondary meaning of this English verb, because it normally means to grab, to keep in one's hands or arms, which is where it has the same meaning as to lift. Not a valid etymology as soon as you think about it a bit. "This is another root *k´el-"…No I got "*k(')eln-" when searching for Lat. cella (with all the IE fields activated, so I miss no detail). I have no idea why he put that /n/ in *k(')eln-, neither the Germanic nor the Latin words have any /n/ anywhere, so I think it's in excess and *kel- (or Vasconic *gel-) is actually the true root.

     
  20. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 6:29 am

    But close to other areas of Basque toponimy,Not Basque but "Vasconic". Notice the use of quotation marks to express my incredulity.While Etruscans and Italics arrived to Italy about the same time surelyI don't think so.it is impossible that Etruscan could have influenced proto-Germanic.Not so impossible, because there's evidence of contacts across the Alpine Area in the Iron Age.Also to stop, to stay put, only has the same meaning as to hold in a figurative or secondary meaning of this English verb, because it normally means to grab, to keep in one's hands or arms, which is where it has the same meaning as to lift. Not a valid etymology as soon as you think about it a bit. LOL. Have you been ever arrested? In order to stop somebody, you have to hold him/she. It's a perfectly valid etymology (notice that *k- rgularly became g- in Basque). No I got "*k(')eln-" when searching for Lat. cella (with all the IE fields activated, so I miss no detail).I'm afraid Nikolayev's dictionary isn't the only etymological source.have no idea why he put that /n/ in *k(')eln-, neither the Germanic nor the Latin words have any /n/ anywhere,so I think it's in excessHe derived these words by adding a -n- suffix to the root *k´el-, so *kel-na would have given cella. Although this is legitimate (other words have this suffix), by no means it's sure (e.g. Mallory-Adams prefer *k´el-s- instead).*kel- (or Vasconic *gel-) is actually the true root.There's no such Vasconic root **gel- nor it's related to cella.

     
  21. eurologist

    July 7, 2011 at 6:42 am

    "we find in Germanic *xálɵan-/*xaldaán- 'to hold, to lift'"to lift seems to be a wrong translation. The correct one IMO is to carry, which is a derivative but closer to to hold. Closer to the original Germanic is today's halten in German. The meaning to stop (Halt!) is derivative, as in "now hold on, for a moment!").Sometimes, a word of the same origin can migrate into a language at different times. For example, Northern European houses had no cellars (due to construction and high water tables), but monks used them in their cloisters. So, Germ. Keller arrived late from Latin (engl. cellar; also cell / Germ. Zelle) <– Lat. cellarium (storage room, later often meant to be underground) <– Lat. cella. Note that all English forms and the German Zelle use the later soft "c".On the other hand, Germ. Halle and Saal are of old PIE origin from the same root.As to beech (Germ. Buche, see also bush/Busch), that tree has extremely dense stands from Germany to the Carpathians and Ukraine (in fact, just recently chosen as UNESCO World Heritage sites).http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1133That may hint at the origin of the word.

     
  22. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 6:52 am

    "I don't think so".Italics arrived to NE Italy either within the Terramare culture. Later they moved southwards in the 7th century BCE. Etruscans also entered the area, from the Aegean most likely, in that same period. The Villanova culture begins c. 1300 BCE and that is the moment when we can begin talking of Etruscans. Genetic studies seem to confirm that the Etruscan aristocracy were almost like modern Turks and that even to some extent modern Tuscans are closer to the Aegean/West Asian genetics than other Italians. "Not so impossible, because there's evidence of contacts across the Alpine Area in the Iron Age".The origin of Germanic is generally (very much consensually) accepted to be Scandinavia and maybe the Northern parts of Continental Europe. Hence it is impossible that Etruscan and Germanic influenced each other without any mediation (and even with mediation it is most difficult). "In order to stop somebody, you have to hold him/she. It's a perfectly valid etymology"…It is not. It is very forced, nonsensical when you look at it with some attention. And this example of arrest is total nonsense again: you don't stop a horse holding it, you don't stop yourself holding your body… you actually don't stop people by holding them most of the time: a verbal or visual sign is more than enough.You're pushing things to the amateurish side of things and you should not with that flamboyant academic title you have. "(notice that *k- rgularly became g- in Basque)"I thought it regularly became *h- I am even surprised that there is any /k/ left at all in modern Basque with so many things our second favorite consonant (after R) has to transform into "regularly". Luckily normal people speak normal and not as linguists think they do. Luckily Basque still has LOTS of Ks. "I'm afraid Nikolayev's dictionary isn't the only etymological source".That Starostin's database was your recommendation, a very insistent one, a few days ago. I'm doing what you told me to do… nothing else."There's no such Vasconic root **gel- nor it's related to cella".I'm here proposing the opposite: that there is a Vasconic root *gel- from which gela and geldi(tu) (at least) meaning stay, stop or location. And that from gela or *gel- come Germanic hall and Latin cella, which are obviously not IE words but Western aboriginal substrate loans. You can repeat all you want that what I say "is not" but this is like the witches: we are, we are not… we are and we are a lot.

     
  23. Gioiello

    July 7, 2011 at 7:11 am

    @ Octavià“He derived these words by adding a -n- suffix to the root *k´el-, so *kel-na would have given cella. Although this is legitimate (other words have this suffix), by no means it's sure (e.g. Mallory-Adams prefer *k´el-s- instead)”.But if *k’elsa would have given Latin “cella” and NE (New English, then Germanic) “hall”, why *kòlsos has given Latin “collus but OHG (Old High German) “hals”? The suffix –n could explain better Latin, but if we link from *k’el- also Greek καλῑᾱ’ and Skrr śâla-, probably we should look for another explication. Also the vowel -a- of Greek should be explained.

     
  24. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 7:16 am

    Italics arrived to NE Italy either within the Terramare culture. Later they moved southwards in the 7th century BCE.Evidence?Etruscans also entered the area, from the Aegean most likely, in that same period. The Villanova culture begins c. 1300 BCE and that is the moment when we can begin talking of Etruscans.IMHO, Etruscan came later to Italy. Interestingly, Etruscan φersi- 'iron' was borrowed from Italic *ferso- > Latin ferrum.The origin of Germanic is generally (very much consensually) accepted to be Scandinavia and maybe the Northern parts of Continental Europe.References?Hence it is impossible that Etruscan and Germanic influenced each other without any mediation (and even with mediation it is most difficult).It's their location and trade networks in the Iron Age what really matters.Yes, you hold it by the reins.you don't stop yourself holding your bodyObviously, nobody can "hold" himself.you actually don't stop people by holding them most of the time: a verbal or visual sign is more than enoughWe're speaking of physical contact "sports" like rugby. Police arrests are only one of these "games".You're pushing things to the amateurish side of things and you should not with that flamboyant academic title you have.You're wrong on both sides, becasue I'm not an academical linguist and my work isn't "amateurish", but yours. "(notice that *k- regularly became g- in Basque)"This can be seen in castellu- > gaztelu, cella > gela and many other words.I thought it regularly became *h-This actually happened with strong *k:- in native proto-Basque words.I am even surprised that there is any /k/ left at all in modern Basque with so many things our second favorite consonant (after R) has to transform into "regularly".Because initial k- in modern Basque has another origin. Most of these words are recent loanwords from Romance and/or other extinct languages.'m here proposing the opposite: that there is a Vasconic root *gel- from which gela and geldi(tu) (at least) meaning stay, stop or location. And that from gela or *gel- come Germanic hall and Latin cella, which are obviously not IE words but Western aboriginal substrate loans.Sorry, but the actual evidence contradicts you. For me, this discussion is over.

     
  25. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 7:20 am

    "but if we link from *k’el- also Greek καλῑᾱ’ and Skrr śâla-"What are these two words (and what is "Skrr"). Is thsi śâla- the same as 'sala' in Italian and Spanish (hall, living room). Why does Starostin's database ignore this word? Bug or feature? It seems very close to Germanic hall in the form (h<>s only changes, closer than cella).

     
  26. eurologist

    July 7, 2011 at 7:27 am

    I should add that in a truly ironic coincidence of history and etymology, the Faguswerk in Alfeld/Germany (one of the first buildings of modern industrial design) was also just included as UNESCO World Heritage site (I have seen the building in person, it is actually quite impressive as a design invention). It was a shoe-last factory and named after the Latin word for beech tree, because that's what shoe lasts are made of…

     
  27. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 7:44 am

    "Evidence?"It's mainstream in the understanding of IE expansion within the Kurgan model (which is the only one that makes any sense). "Etruscan φersi- 'iron' was borrowed from Italic *ferso- > Latin ferrum".The etymology of ferrum from *bhres- / *bhers- looks forced. This is not an IE, not even a Western IE word but probably has some other origin. As Etruscans and Italics met before either used steel ('iron') they probably borrowed the word from the same third source. This source surely was Aegean/Anatolian or otherwise West Asian, simply because it was there where the Iron Age began. Notice that it's not too different from Basque 'burdin' either. Someone suggested that 'burdin' might be related to Hebrew 'barzel' and Aramaic parzla/parzlo. On the other hand Greek sideros and Armenian érkel don't seem related. Burdin, barzel, ferrum/ferso and phersi seem all related. I wonder even if it has a Phoenician origin (would make all sense). "References?"LOL, search Wikipedia or Google."We're speaking of physical contact "sports" like rugby".No, we are not. Geldi is to stop transitive but specially intransitive (stop oneself). When you say gel! or geldi! it is a "command" (imperative) to stop yourself, your body, your movement. Otherwise it requires more data and grammar and is therefore less primeval and less useful from the linguistic viewpoint. Specially in its relation with gela (room), it is a clear case of one stopping by and not being violently tackled by some gorilla. "I'm not an academical linguist"…I thought you were. You give yourself a varnish as if you were one. "For me, this discussion is over".Not that I mind, sincerely.

     
  28. eurologist

    July 7, 2011 at 7:54 am

    In German(ic) Halle (very large single-purpose building with both large exterior construction and large interior space) and Saal (large interior room, usually part of a larger building that contains additional rooms and floors) the H and S are interchanged the same as in the many words for salt: Greek hal- (as in halogen, Hallstadt), but Lat. sal, Germ. Salz, Engl. salt.Perhaps the original leading sound (denoted *x above) was closer to the "ch" still used in Switzerland and turned "h" in Celtic (same original area, including regions west/southwest of Switzerland, i.e. the originally most SW extent of IE), and traveled to Greece by trade.BTW, very few people today support a Scandinavian origin of Germanic. All Scandinavian languages have all the characteristic features occurring in a language diaspora. Germanic surely condensed in northern and central Germany and adjacent eastern regions – how far south it originally reached is disputed, but to me it looks like Celtic was only spoken at trading posts along the main rivers (Rhine and Danube) – outside of these "oppida" it may very well have been Germanic all along (i.e., even before Roman times – from the beginning of the the separation of proto-Germanic from IE).And yes, Italic surely must be that IE which crossed the Alps with cattle/milk farmers from south of the upper Danube.

     
  29. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 8:09 am

    It's mainstream in the understanding of IE expansion within the Kurgan model (which is the only one that makes any sense).LOL. And you said people should question everyhting.The etymology of ferrum from *bhres- / *bhers- looks forced. This is not an IE, not even a Western IE word but probably has some other origin.Yes, that's right. Notice also English brass has the same origin.As Etruscans and Italics met before either used steel ('iron') they probably borrowed the word from the same third source.IMHO, Etruscan borrowed it from Italic because Villanovian people were Italic speakers.This source surely was Aegean/Anatolian or otherwise West Asian, simply because it was there where the Iron Age began.This might be right, but more data is required.Notice that it's not too different from Basque 'burdin' either.Yes, that's right. Notice also Semitic *birt-/*burt- 'metal (artifact)'.Someone suggested that 'burdin' might be related to Hebrew 'barzel' and Aramaic parzla/parzlo.This "someone" is our former "friend" Arnaud Fournet. Remember him?Burdin, barzel, ferrum/ferso and phersi seem all related. I wonder even if it has a Phoenician origin (would make all sense).To me, it looks like a Vasco-Caucasian Wanderwort.LOL, search Wikipedia or Google.Should I remind you the importance of printed sources as opposite to online junk?"We're speaking of physical contact "sports" like rugby".No, we are not. Geldi is to stop transitive but specially intransitive (stop oneself).I wasn't referring to the Basque meaning, but the original one.Specially in its relation with gela (room),This relationship only exists in your mind.I thought you were. You give yourself a varnish as if you were one.You should be more respectful to other people, specially if they're more knowledgeable than you in a given subject. I'm a civilized person open to discuss whatever ideas, but I'm not of fond of absurd ones.

     
  30. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 8:32 am

    In German(ic) Halle (very large single-purpose building with both large exterior construction and large interior space) and Saal (large interior room, usually part of a larger building that contains additional rooms and floors) the H and S are interchanged the same as in the many words for salt: Greek hal- (as in halogen, Hallstadt), but Lat. sal, Germ. Salz, Engl. salt.That's right. This can be explained because both words have a remote Vasco-Caucasian common origin: PNC *q@lV 'house, hut'. In the languages spoken in Central Europe during the Neolithic, the initial uvular evolved to a velar *k- reflected in Latin cella and Germanic *xall-ō-, but also to Latin in-cola 'inhabitant' (wrongly linked by IE-ists to PIE *kWel- 'to turn'). Interestingly, this root is also the origin of French chalet 'cottage', a word from the Swiss Alps, where it designates a mountain refuge.However, in the area near the Caucasus, it gave an uvular fricative *X- reflected in Kartvelian *xl- 'o dwell, to live' and *sa-xl- 'house'. This fricative was fronted to *s- in PIE, giving *sel- 'dwelling, settlement' > Latin solum, Germanic *sala-.Perhaps the original leading sound (denoted *x above) was closer to the "ch" still used in Switzerland and turned "h" in Celtic (same original area, including regions west/southwest of Switzerland, i.e. the originally most SW extent of IE), and traveled to Greece by trade.Not really, as the shift *s- > h- is regular in Greek and part of Celtic.

     
  31. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 8:34 am

    This fricative was fronted to *s- in PIE, giving *sel- 'dwelling, settlement' > Latin solum, Germanic *sala-.I named this sound shift "Fournet's Law" after the name of my opponent, because he inspired it to me, although he was unable to recognize it.

     
  32. Gioiello

    July 7, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Maju, you have said many times that I put Italy always at the centre of all, but each of us has his own centres. Nobody would have thought that amongst Indians there are many ferocious nationalists: read something about Indo-European languages and hg. R1a: the most ancient (R1a-M420) is so far only in Europe, also in Italy, and probably the Rhaetian Region is full of them, and nobody knows for certain where IE languages were born.You always repeat that Etruscans came from Asia Minor. I have said to you many times, and written on many forums, that this isn’t demonstrated. I have broken in pieces all the papers which tried to demonstrate this. Also Barbujani (a radical-chic whom I don’t love, one of the flock of Cavalli-Sforza – Farfugliani and Cavallo Sforzesco in my idiolect -) has written in a paper of his, after having said with his master that Italians don’t exist but they always came from elsewhere, that the link between some Tuscans of today, not all but only the inhabitants of Casentino, and “Turks” dates back to 13,000YBP. I think he was the DagoRed who wrote on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”: read what I have written about him.I think that if we all aren’t able to rid ourselves of all our prejudices, we’ll never reach some truth. Because our theories will be confirmed or disproved by next proofs.My bet is that there has been a link between Etruscan (with Rhaetian and Camun) and IE languages. Probably also Basque could have some link with these ancient European languages, intermediate between the Caucasian and other “Mediterranean” ones. We go back to a very ancient period, probably when the known groups weren’t yet formed. Already the most ancient IE languages (Hittite and Tocharian, but also Albanian etc.) demonstrate an ancient phase and the link with Etruscan and other languages isn’t so unthinkable.For instance in Etruscan “culs” are “the door” and Culsans is like Latin Ianus, from “ianua”. Why don’t think that this word is linked with our word (*k’els-)?

     
  33. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 9:26 am

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  34. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 9:43 am

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  35. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 9:55 am

    This can be explained because both words have a remote Vasco-Caucasian common origin: PNC *q@lV 'house, hut'. In the languages spoken in Central Europe during the Neolithic, the initial uvular evolved to a velar *k- reflected in Latin cella and Germanic *xall-ō-, but also to Latin in-cola 'inhabitant' (wrongly linked by IE-ists to PIE *kWel- 'to turn').Actually Latin in-cola, in-quil-īnus point to a PIE B root *kWel- 'to dwell' from the Eurasiatic root *gülV 'dwelling', which in turn is related to PNC *q@lV. But for Latin cella and Germanic *xall-ō, I'd prefer instead PNC *kiɫū 'farmstead, hut'.My bet is that there has been a link between Etruscan (with Rhaetian and Camun) and IE languages.But only in the form of loanwords. Etruscan and its near relatives, that is, Tyrrhenian, is an un-IE language by all accounts.Probably also Basque could have some link with these ancient European languages, intermediate between the Caucasian and other “Mediterranean” ones.Yes, that's right. They're the result of a Westwards expansion of Neolithic farmers across Europe.For instance in Etruscan “culs” are “the door” and Culsans is like Latin Ianus, from “ianua”. Why don’t think that this word is linked with our word (*k’els-)?The Etruscan word seem to reflect PNEC *GHwælɕV 'stick, board; bolt'.

     
  36. eurologist

    July 7, 2011 at 11:49 am

    "Not really, as the shift *s- > h- is regular in Greek and part of Celtic.'It's regular in the alpine region – but please give me more examples of where it is regular in ancient Greek. If so, that may convince me that a proto-Celtic had a more eastern range than I currently suspect.

     
  37. Gioiello

    July 7, 2011 at 11:57 am

    The shift from s- to h- is universal and doesn't demonstrate anything.

     
  38. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Yes, it has nothing to with the Germanic words.

     
  39. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    @Eurologist:What you say about S/H and a possible proto-sound X or CH in that place makes some good sense. "BTW, very few people today support a Scandinavian origin of Germanic".Uhm… Nordic Iron Age is the main Germanic origin reference. I bet we can all agree with that, right?"Germanic surely condensed in northern and central Germany and adjacent eastern regions – how far south it originally reached is disputed, but to me it looks like Celtic was only spoken at trading posts along the main rivers (Rhine and Danube) – outside of these "oppida" it may very well have been Germanic all along (i.e., even before Roman times – from the beginning of the the separation of proto-Germanic from IE)".I do not think this makes any sense at all. I can maybe accept the hypothesis that Germanic had a continental origin in Low Germany but all Middle and Upper Germany were Celtic in the La Tène period (and surely before to a large extent – in any case no reason to think in Germanic specifically before Celtic). Rhineland is probably the origin of Celts anyhow, unless you'd consider them to have originated in Unetiĉe culture proper (Central Germany, Bohemia, Silesia). Very importantly you talk from the slippery foundation of mere linguistics, while I (and others) try to understand the material cultural expressions as directly related and manifestations of ethnicity to at least some extent as well. Of all this you say nothing.

     
  40. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    @Gioello: The existence of bad examples in other ethnic contexts does not justify anything: I will attack irrational claims of Indian origins or Basque/Iberian origins equally. In fact I do all the time. There is some guy who emails me sporadically and his obsession is always that there is some sort of plot to diminish the importance of Iberia in World genetics. I mostly have to put his beliefs to rest because they make no sense or only some sense: he puts emotions before reason also and the product is horrible, not apt for sale. He's a nice guy otherwise."the most ancient (R1a-M420) is so far only in Europe, also in Italy, and probably the Rhaetian Region is full of them"…That would be very interesting. Have you got any evidence?Mind you that I do not think anymore that R1a and Indoeuropean languages are strictly related in any way. Only Ra1a7 is surely related to Corded Ware (Western IEs) but it has a more limited distribution. "… and nobody knows for certain where IE languages were born".I have debated this matter once and many times and I'm pretty sure it was in the Samara basin, modernly in Russia. "You always repeat that Etruscans came from Asia Minor".Yes: all evidence suggests that: Minoan-like hairstyles (Eteocretans also arrived from Asia minor), art (and maybe also architectural knowledge, which Romans borrowed from them). A variant of the Etruscan language was spoken in Lemnos, just offshore of ancient Troy. I think that Etruscans were Pelasgians of some sort, maybe even genuine Trojans (the Roman myth about Aeneas founding Lavinium may be related, as Aeneas is surely just a variant of wanax: 'king' in Eteocretan – and early Greek). "I have said to you many times, and written on many forums, that this isn’t demonstrated".I have not seen any evidence dismantling it nor any well written article on the matter either. Just because you go around complaining, "crying", you are not going to persuade anyone but mostly create a bad name for yourself and your "cause". You should better intiate a blog or equivalent where you could calmly and positively discuss all these matters, and use such posts (full, I imagine of carefully pondered arguments, maps, paper references, graphs, etc.) to expose your argument. I think you have some reason in some parts of what you say but it's very difficult to say with so much emotional outpouring and lack of specific data to evaluate independently by the reader. But there is also a good deal of external input into Italy. That's undeniable and the Tuscan case is extremely odd because it's not the are you'd think most affected by Aegean immigration, only Etruscans can explain that… but only if they are, as has been argued since Antiquity, of Anatolian ("Lydian") origin. "My bet is that there has been a link between Etruscan (with Rhaetian and Camun) and IE languages"…I don't think Rhaetian is related to Etruscan except by loanwords, as happens with Latin. Please consider always that Etruscan alphabet lacks the sounds b, d, g and o, so they'd be likely written as p, t/th, k/q and u, much to the confusion of modern readers. It is not a matter easy to solve because only a handful of inscriptions are known, yet some words remind me to Latin anyhow, so it's maybe an outsider Italic. "For instance in Etruscan “culs” are “the door” and Culsans is like Latin Ianus, from “ianua”. Why don’t think that this word is linked with our word (*k’els-)?"What is "our word (*k’els-)"? Do you mean the hypothetical root of cella, gela, etc.? I don't have any reason not to think what you say but neither any reason to thing as you say either. Doors are only vaguely related to rooms (also to houses in general and any other kind of enclosures) and Ianus/Culsan is only vaguely related to them. So meh!

     
  41. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    Also, Gioello, you may want to consider initiating an Italian genetic project (like Dienekes' Dodecad, Zack's Harappa, etc.) of sorts, if that matches your abilities (beats me, sincerely) or you can recruit someone with computer skills to help you. I would really love to see how Italians cluster on their own (and in relation to neighbors but with Italian oversampling). So far research has not been able to find that elusive Italian-specific component(s) that I think must exist but if you get to research Italians specifically, it must show up. And then, only then, we will be able to evaluate its relevance, its geographic patterns, etc.

     
  42. Octavià Alexandre

    July 7, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    I don't think Rhaetian is related to Etruscan except by loanwords, as happens with Latin. Please consider always that Etruscan alphabet lacks the sounds b, d, g and o, so they'd be likely written as p, t/th, k/q and u, much to the confusion of modern readers. It is not a matter easy to solve because only a handful of inscriptions are known, yet some words remind me to Latin anyhow, so it's maybe an outsider Italic.It looks like the so-called Rhaetic inscriptions actually reflect more than one language, one related to Etruscan and also a Celtic one.

     
  43. Gioiello

    July 7, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    About the forum you are right. You are doing an excellent work, but I haven’t the time, so far, for doing it: I must work to live. But I have spread my ideas in many thousands of letters (in my bad English) in many forums (two actually banned me, even though someone made amends for it) and it isn’t true I haven’t carried demonstrations and proofs: they simply must be looked for.

     
  44. Maju

    July 7, 2011 at 9:56 pm

    I think that it is important in order to expose your ideas to others, to have some reference pages where you explore and expose what you think, how it diverges from what others think and what factual evidence you have. That should support your ideas with greater clarity and precision that others can better understand and also allow for an improved feedback, constructive criticisms. It should provide a greater payback for your time as well: you'd only need to write once to get many potential readings instead of writing and explaining once and again the same thing. Then in your comments all around the web, instead of exposing all over and over, you'd use just a link with some context.

     
  45. Octavià Alexandre

    July 12, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    The use of the locative zutan 'in the heavens' is particularly interesting, because it implies the word zut (today 'on foot, upright') was used in old Basque for 'sky, heaven', which in modern Basque is zeru, a Romance loanword.What a mistake! The actual 'sky' word is zu, wtih -tan being the locative.Also zeru is just one of the eclesiastic Romance loanwords like saindu, domeka, garizima, etc.

     
  46. Maju

    July 12, 2011 at 6:35 pm

    "-tan" is locative only in some cases:etxe-a (the house) > etxe-an (in the house)etxe-ak (the houses) > etxe-etan (in the houses)etxe-rik (any house/-s) > etxe-tan (in any house/-s) – this form is used in negative sentences and questions mostly, like English "any", which imply ambiguity about the attributes of the subject. Replace etxe by zeru (arguably shortened to "zu") as needed. So if the suffix is -tan, then it must belong to a negative or interrogative sentence: any heaven(s): z(er)u-tan. However my dictionary lists also the following possibles beginning in "zu-" (only best examples here):·zut: interjection for "stand up"·zuta: milk (in Zuberoa?)·zutabe (lit. under "zuta"): column, pillar.·zutarri: standing stone, milestone·zutera: verticality·zutitu: to stand up·zutik: stand up, standing·zutin: erectEtc.So the "standing" reading makes some good sense, specially if it is a lost variant of "zutin": "our father erect"… would emphasize that Roman era teenagers were thinking about the same things and were as irreverent as today. It's of course just one interpretation."Also zeru is just one of the eclesiastic Romance loanwords like saindu, domeka, garizima, etc."How are these words "Romance"? Remember that Christianity's ritual language was until recently Latin and only Latin. And these words all look directly taken from Latin (the ending in -u is very telling). The only exception might be Domeka (Sunday), which is ambiguous but also limited to some areas (normally Igandea).

     
  47. Octavià Alexandre

    July 12, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    Replace etxe by zeru (arguably shortened to "zu") as needed. I disagree. This zu must be the genuine Basque word for 'sky, heaven', later substituted by Romance zeru."our father erect"… would emphasize that Roman era teenagers were thinking about the same things and were as irreverent as today.This is absurd. You insist in reading this as it were modern Basque when it's not.How are these words "Romance"? Remember that Christianity's ritual language was until recently Latin and only Latin.Actually an evolved form of Latin, that is, Late Latin or early Romance from the Visigothic period. Remember that early Latin loanwords in Basque have different phonetic features: velars don't get palatized before e, i and the Latin s becames z (the lamino-alveolar sibilant).The only exception might be Domeka (Sunday), which is ambiguous but also limited to some areas (normally Igandea).There're also other words like the one corresponding to Spanish quaresma and also the other day names in Biscayan.

     
  48. Maju

    July 13, 2011 at 2:20 am

    "This zu must be the genuine Basque word for 'sky, heaven'"…Why? I can't imagine why at all. In principle it is ortzi/ost, as documented in plenty of derived nouns (meteorological, weekdays) and the attested case of Codex Calixtinus: "et Deus vocant Urcia". It is generally agreed that that this Urtzi/Ost is the personification of the sky (I'd dare say that related to (pre-)Greek Ouranos) however it was not venerated (as were the chtonic gods but rather used to absorb foreign beliefs related to the sky: Jupiter first, Yaveh later). "This is absurd".Maybe… but standing or something may well be. It does not seem related to the drawing of a crucified man… or only obliquely. A matter for debate in any case."Late Latin or early Romance from the Visigothic period".I doubt that there was much of an influence in the Visigothic non-period. The Dark Ages are largely a continuation of the generalized hostility that surely existed with the Celts in the pre-Roman period. If anywhere Basques looked to the Franks (a more distant and less brutal foreign domain, under which the Duchy of Vasconia was constituted) and not the Visigoths.In any case there has been a lot of mention on the Latin texts being not Classical but clearly Vulgar – however not Romance yet in any case: early transitional at the most. This was one of the alleged evidence in favor of falsification: that the Latin texts were in most cases poor Latin – then came an expert in Vulgar Latin and said: indeed, it's Vulgar Latin and that makes them even more interesting. Remember that we are dealing here with draft writs, surely school exercises or something of the like. There is not a single formal text in all the findings AFAIK. "There're also other words like the one corresponding to Spanish quaresma and also the other day names in Biscayan".But all this may have been implemented recently: it may well be direct Spanish influence, which has been active for the last 800 years or more. However I want to make quick mention here that I conjecture that Latin verb sancio (to exert authority, to sanction), root of saint, is non-IE and comes from Vasconic zaindu (to care, to guard). The devolution of the word into the Basque linguistic zone would produce saindu (and not santu as would be from sanctum), quite naturally. This is a loanword but possibly also a linguistic boomerang effect. As for Garizima, the closest I can find is Italian Quaresima (Lat. Quadragesima), so it is maybe again a loan via Vulgar Latin, rather than any nearby Romance.

     
  49. Octavià Alexandre

    July 13, 2011 at 8:58 am

    "This zu must be the genuine Basque word for 'sky, heaven'"…Why? I can't imagine why at all. In principle it is ortzi/ost, as documented in plenty of derived nouns (meteorological, weekdays) and the attested case of Codex Calixtinus: "et Deus vocant Urcia".Ortzi/Urtzi was actually a Sky-God like Jupiter or Thor, not properly 'sky'.My point is zu was the Basque genuine word for 'sky' before it was replaced by zeru.I doubt that there was much of an influence in the Visigothic non-period.IMHO an early Romance language was probably spoken in the Western part of the Basque Country at that time. Later, the area was (re)Vasconized but this language survived in loanwords (I'm overly simplifying).But all this may have been implemented recently: it may well be direct Spanish influence, which has been active for the last 800 years or more.Not really (see above).As for Garizima, the closest I can find is Italian Quaresima (Lat. Quadragesima), so it is maybe again a loan via Vulgar Latin, rather than any nearby Romance.You're confused here, because ALL Romance languages, including the lexicon of Romance origin embedded in Basque, come from Vulgar Latin. Nobody spoke Classical Latin.But most important, these words didn't come from any "nearby" Romance, but the autochtonous one.However I want to make quick mention here that I conjecture that Latin verb sancio (to exert authority, to sanction), root of saint, is non-IE and comes from Vasconic zaindu (to care, to guard).I'm afraid this is wrong. The Basque word is a loanword from Gaulish danos 'magistrate, curator', with initial d- > z- and final -o > -i.

     
  50. Maju

    July 13, 2011 at 9:27 am

    "Ortzi/Urtzi was actually a Sky-God like Jupiter or Thor, not properly 'sky'".There should be no difference (personification of a natural phenomenon), specially when such "god" was not even venerated at all, it seems. "My point is zu was the Basque genuine word for 'sky' before it was replaced by zeru".Why? Just because of this graffito? "IMHO an early Romance language was probably spoken in the Western part of the Basque Country at that time. Later, the area was (re)Vasconized …".Nonsense. There was all the time irregular penetration of Latin, then Vulgar Latin and finally Romances (more like in the High Middle Ages, when they begin to be attested) but there was no re-vasconization anywhere: speaking Basque was never useful, nor politically encouraged, just natural. Basque has been receding or at best resisting passively all the time since before the Romans. It was once spoken however in much larger areas than today, for example the Cantabri surely spoke Basque (or related dialect) and probably the Astures and Artabri as well, it was spoken in what is now Aragon and parts of Catalonia, in Aquitaine, La Rioja and once surely in even much wider areas."Not really (see above)".Nothing relevant "above", quit the one-liners if you want to communicate, ok? "Nobody spoke Classical Latin".LOL. There would be no classical Latin if it was never spoken. All written languages are first spoken languages. And we know that the likes of Cato, Virgilio, Caesar, Pliny, etc. wrote in classical Latin, so they surely spoke classical Latin as well. "… these words didn't come from any "nearby" Romance, but the autochtonous one".You're making up all that. Anyhow the attested Romance closest to Biscay was Castilian (born at Valpuesta, not too far from Iruña-Veleia) and then Navarrese Romance (attested in La Rioja together with Basque) and then Gascon and Astur-Leonese. So if anything it should come from Castilian, which, as everybody knows, is Vulgar Latin badly spoken by some aculturized Basques, just like Aragonese or Gascon."The Basque word is a loanword from Gaulish danos 'magistrate, curator', with initial d- > z- and final -o > -i".And what else?! You read that somewhere and you adopted that nonsense acritically. It's pointless to debate with you because you make these claims without any logic and expect people to accept them "just because".

     

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