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Many more interesting short news

04 Aug
Earliest known dog
A lot of them, but not all, come via Stone Pages’ Archaeo News.
Just to get you interested: oldest dog ever, oldest people in America… and the Bubbliverse!
(Not drooling yet?! You’re reading the wrong blog then).
Europe

Spain: Andalusian caves were explored with bee wax lamps (candles) and not animal wax ones (which would have been cumbersome). Exposition on this matter on Aug. 10 in Puente Viesgo, Cantabria. ··> Pileta de Prehistoria[es].
Wales: Tests confirm age of Wales rock art. (Direct communication of Prof. Nash to Stone Pages’ ArchaeoNews).
Scotland: Sainbury site was sort of Epipaleolithic rest stop. ··> BBC.
Bulgaria: Chalcolithic burial found in Pomorie ··> The Sofia Echo.
Sardinia: 300 menhirs (standing stones) found. ··> L’Uninone Sarda[it], Sardegna 24[it].
Italy: early Etruscan holy site, dated c. 1000 BCE, found near Viterbo. ··> ANSA, UPI.
Asia
Siberia: Earliest dog skull found in Altai, dated to 33,000 years ago. It has short snout like dogs but long fangs like wolves. ··> BBC, Daily Mail, PLoS ONE (I may write more later on this).
Japan: Chinese style tools were introduced to Japan c. 25-20,000 years ago. ··> Xinhua.
Jordan: Ancient city of Tell Qarqur could withstand massive drought c. 2000 BCE. ··> Live Science.
India: Sebalpani rock paintings may be from historical period. ··> DNA India.
America
USA: Oldest evidence of human presence in all North America  found near Salado, Texas. The site has been dated to c. 15,500 BP and has yielded some 16,000 artifacts already. ··> WFAA.
Canada: Evidence of human presence c. 10,000 years ago, near Penfield, New Brunswick. A highway’s design has been changed to preserve the site. ··> CBC.
Mexico: Olmec relief 2800 years old found in Chalcatzingo, Morelos ··> Latin American Herald Tribune.
Africa / human evolution
Australopithecus sediba proposed missing link between australopithecines and humans. ··> National Geographic.
Genetics & biology
Alternative splicing to explain mammal brain capabilities. Genes alone cannot account for the improved mammal neural complexity. ··> Science Daily.
Astronomy & cosmology
Multiverse confirmed: our Universe just a bubble among many. Identification in the gamma radiation background by objective computer program adds weight to the idea that other bubble-universes have left their marks on ours. ··> Science Daily.

Welcome to the Bubbliverse, earthlings!
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107 responses to “Many more interesting short news

  1. pconroy

    August 5, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    OT, but here's some news you may be interested in:http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0805/donegal.htmlSpanish Armada ship found off coast of Donegal. Donegal in the NorthWest of Ireland is the only place known to have had a few families of Spanish Armada descent.

     
  2. Maju

    August 5, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    Interesting and appreciated, Conroy. However I seldom comment on historical (or even Iron Age) matters. Is not any rule but I feel that it has (generally) less interest because it deals with better known matters. My subjectivity…

     
  3. eurologist

    August 7, 2011 at 9:23 am

    On the dog: quite interesting, but I doubt dog usage and breeding was so haphazard as it is made out to have been in the article. It had incredibly important functionality, so I think it was coveted and continuously and actively supported.The Texas site is very important but has been reported on before.As to the bubble-verse(s), similar attempts were crushed on statistical grounds, before. While the authors are trying harder this time, I still think it's an over-interpretation of expected, random features. We will know much, much more by the end of the year or early next year when the processed Planck spacecraft data will be released.

     
  4. Maju

    August 7, 2011 at 9:53 am

    I must agree with you, Eurologist: having dogs is "cheap", specially for nomads or semi-nomadic peoples, as were all hunter-gatherers. The benefits of such alliance were also potentially huge for the human side of the deal, because dogs/wolves are excellent hunters and trackers, and also great defenders. We can easily think that people became quite 'invulnerable' vs. nature with the help of dogs. However Australian Aborigines and dingos also show that people and dogs can get 'divorced', so to say, that the symbiosis was not necessarily all that stable."The Texas site is very important but has been reported on before".I had forgotten or was not aware. "I still think it's an over-interpretation of expected, random features".In truth I do not dare to judge but I don't find the idea absurd at all. They made a major effort to avoid subjective interpretation of random features: can a computer commit the same subjectivity errors as humans? So human-like are they or are they still the good ol' calculator machine they are supposed to be?

     
  5. Andrew Oh-Willeke

    August 8, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    The Japanese finding is IMHO the most surprising.Also surprised that there is any place in Sardinia left that is unexplored enough to turn up that big of a find.I'm not convinced that the multiverse finding really supports the headline conclusion about it.

     
  6. Andrew Oh-Willeke

    August 8, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    Woit discusses the problem with the Bubbleverse headline here.

     
  7. Maju

    August 8, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Sardinia is actually quite abandoned by the cultural authorities. The Berlusconi government has been terrible for historical preservation in any case. Surely those standing stones were there all the time, known to the locals but nobody paid them any attention, just like the marvelous burials that were sealed under concrete and that I have discussed a couple of times at Leherensuge. As for the Japanese finding, it offers a window for the arrival of "Mongoloid" peoples corresponding maybe to the "Okinawan" yellow cluster in the HUGO paper and to Y-DNA O2b maybe. The article is not very explicit but I wonder if they mean blade-based tools (and similar techs like Hoabinhian), which spread through mainland East Asia in that period.

     
  8. terryt

    August 9, 2011 at 6:29 am

    "The article is not very explicit but I wonder if they mean blade-based tools (and similar techs like Hoabinhian), which spread through mainland East Asia in that period". The article is pretty specific about the connection being with North China. The Hoabinhian is SE Asian. "and to Y-DNA O2b maybe". Unlikely. The date suggests pre-Jomon/Ainu times and I don't think any O haplogroup is associated even with Jomo people.

     
  9. Maju

    August 9, 2011 at 10:11 am

    The reference for expansion of blade tech in East Asia is in Mongolia some 20 Ka ago. Don't worry about the Hoabinhian, which is just a side mention (either this or this reference, can't recall). "The date suggests pre-Jomon/Ainu times and I don't think any O haplogroup is associated even with Jomo people". The Yayoi are also "pre-Ainu" in the modern sense of the world. I think that North and South Japan may have got two semi-different populations since long ago. There is some skull of Okinawa dated to c. 17 Ka ago that to me looks like some sort of archaic Monogoloid and not like Ainu in any case. On the other hand the "Chinese" skulls of Zhoukoudian (40 Ka) look Ainu-like to me. So maybe there was a replacement or admixture process c. 20 Ka. Very speculative but I would prefer it over the "Neolithic" models, notably because Native Americans already display "Mongoloid" features a plenty and they surely diverged not much more recently than 20 Ka (and are genetically quite distant from East Asians overall).

     
  10. terryt

    August 10, 2011 at 3:59 am

    "The Yayoi are also 'pre-Ainu' in the modern sense of the world". Perhaps I should have used the expression 'pre-Yayoi'. The Ainu certainly descend from people who were in Japan before the Yayoi arrived there. "I think that North and South Japan may have got two semi-different populations since long ago". Quite likely so I suspect. Y-hap C1 is evidently not know amoung the Ainu yet is confined to Japan. It must have reached there a long time ago. "There is some skull of Okinawa dated to c. 17 Ka ago" That's interesting. Even at times of lowest sea level Okinawa is a long way from the mainland, which implies a very effective boating technology at that date. "So maybe there was a replacement or admixture process c. 20 Ka". Again I'm inclined to agree, but I still don't think that any Y-hap O had reached Japan that long ago, especially seeing it is nowhere present in America.

     
  11. Maju

    August 10, 2011 at 8:34 am

    "The Ainu certainly descend from people who were in Japan before the Yayoi arrived there". Sure, but in all Japan? Was all Japan the same?"Y-hap C1 is evidently not know amoung the Ainu yet is confined to Japan".For instance."That's interesting".I recall the name now: 'Minatogawa man'. Here there is images and discussion by P. Brown. He says that Minatogawa is not Mongoloid (no doubt because he is too dolicocephalic – but many real mongoloids are meso/dolico-cephalic) but I find the face to bee too flat to fin in any other category. "Apart from the orientation of the malars there is little in the remaining cranio-facial morphology of Minatogawa 1 that is shared with Neolithic and modern East Asians (Brown In Press)."What makes a 'Mongoloid' but the orientation of the malars (zygomatic or cheek bones)? Sure, there are other traits, most of them not in the bones but skin and hair, but this one is central. He's probably Sundadont but many Mongoloids are also Sundadont, etc. I'd dare say that Liujiang is transitional to the Mongoloid phenotype as well, but this is much more arguable, I know. Regardless, there are reconstructions that show "him" as clearly Mongoloid – it's all in the eyes (and other fleshy parts), you know. Even Zhoukoudien skulls, which are clearly non-Mongoloid (extremely dolico and other very archaic traits) have been reconstructed as quasi-Mongoloid on occasion. "… still don't think that any Y-hap O had reached Japan that long ago, especially seeing it is nowhere present in America". Japan and America don't have much connection. It's Far NE Asia where the origins of American Natives are to be searched for. Or rather all Siberia (NW Asia too) – but not Japan nor China, not even Mongolia probably.

     
  12. terryt

    August 11, 2011 at 9:53 am

    "I recall the name now: 'Minatogawa man'. Here there is images and discussion by P. Brown". Thanks for the link. Actually O2b is reasonably common in the Ryukyus so perhaps it is that old. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_(Y-DNA)Quote: "A subclade of Haplogroup O2b, namely Haplogroup O2b1-47z, is found with high frequency among the Yamato people and Ryukyuan populations of Japan. Haplogroup O2b1 has been detected in approximately 22% of all males who speak a Japonic language, while it has not been found at all among a total of twenty Ainu males whose Y-DNA has been sampled in two genetic studies". And: "However, Haplogroup O2b* Y-chromosomes have been detected with high frequency in Korea, where they account for approximately 14%[3][4][14] to 33%[8] of the Korean male population". So O2b probably coalesced in Korea, and a downstream clade reached the Ryukyus. "Sure, but in all Japan? Was all Japan the same?" Possibly not. "For instance". http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14997363Quote: "Eleven of the 25 mtDNA sequence types were unique to the Ainu and accounted for over 50% of the population, whereas 14 were widely distributed among other Asian populations. Of the 14 shared types, the most frequently shared type was found in common among the Ainu, Nivkhi in northern Sakhalin, and Koryaks in the Kamchatka Peninsula". Does suggest a distinction between northern and southern populations. "On the paternal side, the vast majority (87.5%) of the Ainu exhibited the Asian-specific YAP+ lineages (Y-haplogroups D-M55* and D-M125), which were distributed only in the Japanese Archipelago in this analysis". That's a high proportion. "On the other hand, the Ainu exhibited no other Y-haplogroups (C-M8, O-M175*, and O-M122*) common in mainland Japanese and Okinawans". Places O's arrival late, I'd say. And no C1-M8. It must be southern Japanese? "It is noteworthy that the rest of the Ainu gene pool was occupied by the paternal lineage (Y-haplogroup C-M217*) from North Asia including Sakhalin". So Ainu do have C3-M217, but not C1. Intertesting.

     
  13. Ebizur

    August 12, 2011 at 6:02 am

    Yukaghir (Pakendorf et al. 2006)1/13 = 7.7% C3c-M48(xM86)2/13 = 15.4% C3c-M861/13 = 7.7% C3-M217(xC3c-M48/M86)1/13 = 7.7% F-M89(xJ2-M172, N1-LLY22g, O3-M122, Q1-P36, R1-M173)4/13 = 30.8% N1c-Tat4/13 = 30.8% Q1-P36Yukagirs (Karafet et al. 1999)1/12 = 8.3% 1B(=BT-SRY10831.1(xC-RPS4Y711, DE-YAP, K-M9))6/12 = 50.0% 1F(=C-RPS4Y711)3/12 = 25.0% 1I(=N1c-Tat)2/12 = 16.7% 1C(=P-DYS257(xQ1a3a-DYS199, R1a1-SRY10831.2))Nivkh/Northern Sakhalin (Tajima et al. 2004)8/21 = 38.1% C3-M2176/21 = 28.6% NO?-AS1(xO1a-M119, O3-M122)4/21 = 19.0% P-P27(xR1a1-SRY10831b)2/21 = 9.5% R1a1-SRY10831b1/21 = 4.8% BT-SRY10831a(xC-RPS4Y711, DE-YAP, K-M9)Nivkh/Northern Sakhalin ("Bloods were takenfrom unrelated and unhybridized individuals living inRybnovsk and Nekrasovka villages in northern SakhalinIsland." Sample description from Torroni et al. 1993, Y-SNP data from Lell et al. 2002.)6/17 = 35.3% C3c-M482/17 = 11.8% C-RPS4Y711(xC3c-M48)2/17 = 11.8% K-M9(xO1a-M119, N1c-Tat, P-M45)1/17 = 5.9% O1a-M1196/17 = 35.3% P-M45(xQ1a3a-M3, R1a1a-M17) Itel'men (Lell et al. 2002)4/18 = 22.2% R1a1a-M172/18 = 11.1% N1c-Tat5/18 = 27.8% C-RPS4Y711(xC3c-M48)7/18 = 38.9% C3c-M48Koryak (Lell et al. 2002)5/27 = 18.5% P-M45(xQ1a3a-M3, R1a1a-M17)6/27 = 22.2% N1c-Tat7/27 = 25.9% C-RPS4Y711(xC3c-M48)9/27 = 33.3% C3c-M48Koryaks (Karafet et al. 2002 as per Pakendorf et al. 2007)4/12 = 33.3% C3-M217(xC3c-M86)4/12 = 33.3% N1c1-M1781/12 = 8.3% O3-M1222/12 = 16.7% Q1-P361/12 = 8.3% Other Koryaks (Karafet et al. 1999; same sample as Karafet et al. 2002)1/12 = 8.3% 1B(=BT-SRY10831.1(xC-RPS4Y711, DE-YAP, K-M9))4/12 = 33.3% 1F(=C-RPS4Y711)1/12 = 8.3% 1U(=K-M9(xN1c-Tat, M2a-SRY9138, P-DYS257))4/12 = 33.3% 1I(=N1c-Tat)2/12 = 16.7% 1C(=P-DYS257(xQ1a3a-DYS199, R1a1-SRY10831.2))Chukchi (Lell et al. 2002)3/24 = 12.5% Q1a3a-M31/24 = 4.2% R1a1a-M175/24 = 20.8% P-M45(xQ1a3a-M3, R1a1a-M17)14/24 = 58.3% N1c-Tat1/24 = 4.2% C3c-M48Chukchi (Karafet et al. 1999)1/4 = 25% 1F(=C-RPS4Y711)1/4 = 25% 1I(=N1c-Tat)1/4 = 25% 1C(=P-DYS257(xQ1a3a-DYS199, R1a1-SRY10831.2))1/4 = 25% 1G(=Q1a3a-DYS199)Kanto region total (Nonaka et al. 2007)2/137 = 1.5% C1-M1053/137 = 2.2% C3-M217(xC3a-M93, C3b-P39, C3c-M48/M77/M86)(5/137 = 3.6% C-M130 total)11/137 = 8.0% D2-M55(xD2a-M116a)18/137 = 13.1% D2a-M116a(xD2a1-M125, D2a2-M151)2/137 = 1.5% D2a1-M125(xD2a1b-JST022457)35/137 = 25.5% D2a1b-022457(66/137 = 48.2% D2-M55 total)3/137 = 2.2% O1a-M119(xO1a1a-M101, O1a2-M50)9/137 = 6.6% O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)33/137 = 24.1% O2b1-47z(42/137 = 30.7% O2b-SRY465 total)2/137 = 1.5% O3-M122(xO3a1-M121, O3a2-M164, O3a3-JST021354, O3a4-JST002611)3/137 = 2.2% O3a4-JST0026115/137 = 3.6% O3a3-JST021354(xO3a3b-M7, O3a3c-M134)4/137 = 2.9% O3a3c-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)6/137 = 4.4% O3a3c1-M117(xO3a3c1a-M162)(10/137 = 7.3% O3a3c-M134 total)(20/137 = 14.6% O3-M122 total)(65/137 = 47.4% O-M175 total)1/137 = 0.7% Q1a1-M120

     
  14. Ebizur

    August 12, 2011 at 6:03 am

    The Koryak and the Chukchi speak obviously related languages (think Portuguese vs. Spanish), but their Y-chromosomes seem to be quite different, with derivatives of C3-M217 being extremely common among the Koryak and much less common among the Chukchi.Anyway, the published data regarding the Y-DNA of the Ainu and surrounding populations are difficult to explain. Y-DNA haplogroup D2 clearly connects them to people living further south in Japan, where about half of all males in the most heavily populated region of eastern Honshu belong to this clade. Not even a single DE-YAP Y-chromosome has been reported to have been found in any indigenous population of extreme Northeast Asia/the Russian Far East. On the other hand, DE-YAP Y-chromosomes do appear regularly in samples of populations from western and northern parts of the PRC (though with low frequency in most populations).The other haplogroup reportedly found in the modern Ainu, C3-M217, is quite rare among Japanese. This haplogroup is instead very common among most indigenous populations of eastern Siberia. However, indigenous peoples of eastern Siberia also exhibit various other haplogroups that have not been reported in the published Ainu sample(s). Have the gene pools of indigenous peoples of the Russian Far East become mixed up because of the activities of the erstwhile Russian Empire and Soviet Union? Or have D2 and C3 Y-chromosomes coexisted in the proto-Ainu population for many generations? (In the latter case, one must explain why D2 is very common but C3 is very rare among modern Japanese.)

     
  15. Maju

    August 12, 2011 at 7:03 am

    It makes sense that all the colonization of Japan arrived from Korea. But it may have arrived in various waves, each one with their specifics. Maybe there was a second wave c. 20-25 Ka. ago that displaced the "proto-Ainu" to the northern half of the archipelago? Or is it just a matter of retained diversity (because of less important drift, because of larger populations)? I'd say that the first but not 100% sure. What I notice is that C1 is so low in frequency that it will hardly help to clarify anything, as its presence/absence can well be historical fluke.

     
  16. Ebizur

    August 13, 2011 at 4:42 am

    C3-M217 is much more common in both Korea (approx. 15%) and China (approx. 10%) than it is in Japan (approx. 2% to 3%). I suppose the frequency of this haplogroup must have increased in mainland East Asia after the Japanese had become genetically isolated in the archipelago.

     
  17. terryt

    August 13, 2011 at 7:46 am

    "the published data regarding the Y-DNA of the Ainu and surrounding populations are difficult to explain. Y-DNA haplogroup D2 clearly connects them to people living further south in Japan, where about half of all males in the most heavily populated region of eastern Honshu belong to this clade". Wouldn't that tend to indicate that D is the earliest Y-hap into Japan? "In the latter case, one must explain why D2 is very common but C3 is very rare among modern Japanese". C3 is the next Y-hap into Japan, but came in from the north? "What I notice is that C1 is so low in frequency that it will hardly help to clarify anything, as its presence/absence can well be historical fluke". That seems to be the case.

     
  18. Maju

    August 13, 2011 at 9:20 am

    @Ebizur:What proportion has C3 among Ainu? I am wondering that, if, as you suggest, Ainu have more C3 than regular Japanese, this may mean a secondary flow from Sakhalin (Nivkh or their ancestors). Similarly C3 in Korea and North China may represent secondary flows from NE Asia, from Manchuria and Mongolia and such. Or maybe better explained as contact homogenization process between populations that were originally clearly distinct. The Japanese would not have been affected by this process because they would have crossed into the islands before it began or became strong. However I see how this could clash with the hypothesis I first considered of this techno-cultural flow (migration) into Japan being related to that of Western UP type (blade, mode 4) tech flow into Mongolia from (surely) Altai. On the other hand we do not perceive any genetic flow associated to this techno-cultural flow in Mongolia either, do we? There is no relevant Y-DNA Q (probable culprit) in Mongolia for example. So I'm going to throw here a weird idea or hypothesis: what if all these tecno-changes correspond to the expansion of the Y-DNA Q "people" into NE Siberia (eventually leading to Native Americans), sharing their tech with some neighbors and in turn maybe triggering a minor but appreciable north to south (East Siberia to Yellow Sea area) technological and then also demographical flow. It's of course an extremely shy draft, a highly tentative hypothesis, and not a finished theory at all. Only archaeology can help with all this. Only knowing what do the "stones and bones" say, we can have a frame of reference for the genetics.

     
  19. Maju

    August 13, 2011 at 9:22 am

    @Terry:"Wouldn't that tend to indicate that D is the earliest Y-hap into Japan?"I would think so. "C3 is the next Y-hap into Japan, but came in from the north?"Looks like, at least for the Ainu area (we do not really know when it arrived there but I agree about a North origin, considering what Ebizur said).

     
  20. terryt

    August 14, 2011 at 10:02 am

    "what if all these tecno-changes correspond to the expansion of the Y-DNA Q 'people' into NE Siberia (eventually leading to Native Americans), sharing their tech with some neighbors and in turn maybe triggering a minor but appreciable north to south (East Siberia to Yellow Sea area) technological and then also demographical flow. It's of course an extremely shy draft, a highly tentative hypothesis, and not a finished theory at all". That is exactly what I have long accepted. "Similarly C3 in Korea and North China may represent secondary flows from NE Asia, from Manchuria and Mongolia and such". That is what I have long assumed. It certainly does not seem to have come from the south even though C2 and C4 are southern. "this could clash with the hypothesis I first considered of this techno-cultural flow (migration) into Japan being related to that of Western UP type (blade, mode 4) tech flow into Mongolia from (surely) Altai". C3 could still have brought that techno-culture in if the people adopted it from those living further west. "There is no relevant Y-DNA Q (probable culprit) in Mongolia for example". But you've mentioned many times that technology can be adopted and then spread independently of genes. But we still have the problem of C1. Perhaps it was early into Southern Japan and has been largely replaced by later immigrants, starting with D.

     
  21. Maju

    August 14, 2011 at 11:06 am

    "But you've mentioned many times that technology can be adopted and then spread independently of genes".Of course. But some contact must exist, right?

     
  22. Ebizur

    August 14, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Maju wrote,"What proportion has C3 among Ainu? I am wondering that, if, as you suggest, Ainu have more C3 than regular Japanese, this may mean a secondary flow from Sakhalin (Nivkh or their ancestors)."Tajima et al. (2004) have reported finding 2/16 = 12.5% C3*-M217, and Hammer et al. (2006) have reported finding 1/4 = 25% C3*-M217 in their Ainu sample(s). Frankly, I am not confident that Tajima's Ainu sample and Hammer's Ainu sample are entirely independent of each other (both papers have made use of the same sample of Japanese from Tokushima, for example), but if one were to average the frequencies that have been presented in the two papers, one would obtain a figure of 15% C3*-M217 for the modern Ainu population. This is approximately equal to the frequency of C3*-M217 among modern Koreans, for example.Maju wrote,"Similarly C3 in Korea and North China may represent secondary flows from NE Asia, from Manchuria and Mongolia and such. Or maybe better explained as contact homogenization process between populations that were originally clearly distinct. The Japanese would not have been affected by this process because they would have crossed into the islands before it began or became strong."I have considered and rejected the hypothesis that relatively high C3*-M217 frequencies among Koreans and Chinese (in both northern China and southern China, by the way) are due to recent admixture of Mongols, Manchus, etc. for two reasons:1) So-called Palaeo-Siberian and (Micro-)Altaic populations exhibit the subclade C3c-M48 with variable but generally high frequency, whereas this subclade has not been reported from samples of Koreans or Han Chinese2) The Y-STR profiles associated with Korean and Han Chinese C3-M217 are notably diverse and tend to be quite different from the Y-STR profiles associated with C3-M217 Y-chromosomes of Mongols, Manchus, etc. (among whom many sampled individuals tend to share identical or very similar haplotypes).

     
  23. Maju

    August 14, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    So do you think that C3 in Chinese and Koreans actually could represent a remnant or different branch(-es) of the original C3 scatter? Has anybody bothered estimating where did this lineage coalesced, is it North China (Beijing area), Korea (probably not but who knows), Manchuria, Mongolia or even further North in NE Siberia? Would I be asked, based on overall distribution I'd think Manchuria maybe but I feel very much unsure in any case – I'd be choosing this area just because it is at the geographic center of C3 distribution, more or less (excluding America, naturally). In any case I did not mean to speculate with "recent" (Neolithic or later) flow from the North but always in the Paleolithic (maybe c. 20 Ka.)

     
  24. terryt

    August 15, 2011 at 2:55 am

    "But some contact must exist, right?" True. But contact between Q and C is quite easy to visualise. "Would I be asked, based on overall distribution I'd think Manchuria maybe but I feel very much unsure in any case – I'd be choosing this area just because it is at the geographic center of C3 distribution, more or less" My guess would be further east, in the south-facing hills of Northern Mongolia, perhaps at the eastern end though. "So do you think that C3 in Chinese and Koreans actually could represent a remnant or different branch(-es) of the original C3 scatter?" I think so. But it seems obvious to me that C3 underwent a period of drift after it arrived in the north. Quite possibly that was during the LGM.

     
  25. terryt

    August 15, 2011 at 3:34 am

    The map in this is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C3_(Y-DNA)Places the centroid around Lake Baikal. However the author claims: "First, Haplogroup C1 has a relictual distribution in Japan, which suggests an origin in the Jōmon people of the prehistoric Japanese Archipelago". Which, from Ebizur's data, seems unlikely. And a couple of other statements: "Haplogroup C* Y-chromosomes, which do not belong to any of the five identified subclades of Haplogroup C, are found at low frequency in Central Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia, and Oceania". "C3* Typical of Mongolians, Kazakhs, Buryats, Daurs, Kalmyks, Hazaras, Manchus, Sibes, Oroqens, Koryaks, and Itelmens; with a moderate distribution among other Tungusic peoples, Koreans, Ainus, Nivkhs, Altaians, Tuvinians, and Uzbeks" Consequently I can't see how the author justifies this statement: "In addition, the C3 haplotypes found with high frequency among North Asian populations appear to belong to a different genealogical branch from the C3 haplotypes found with low frequency among East and Southeast Asians, which suggests that the marginal presence of C3 among modern East and Southeast Asian populations may not be due to recent admixture from Northeast or Central Asia". Surely it merely shows that C3's movment into SE Asia is ancient.

     
  26. Maju

    August 15, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Terry: Why, why, why? You throw opinions around without backing them in any way and you do that all the time. We are not interested in your opinions (as such) but, if anything, in whatever reason and facts backing them. What we are interested in exchanging is intelligence and not just baseless opinions. "The map in this is interesting"…The map is not very trustworthy. My best clue is Buryats, who live by Lake Baikal, and are mostly Y-DNA N and yet the map happily claims the Buryat country as one of the highest in Y-DNA C3. Whatever the case, the data on subclades says, simplified:· C3*: Altaic (micro-Altaic) peoples, Ainu, Nivkh, Hazara· C3a: Japanese· C3b: NW Native Americans· C3c: Altaic peoples· C3d: South China Tibeto-Burman (Tujia, Bai), Han (where?), Cambodians, Altaic peoples· C3e: Altaic peoples· C3f: ??So it should have scattered from the Altaic area. I'd say that the presence in Japan and America reinforces the idea of Manchuria or Russian Far East as a possible origin for this clade. "Surely it merely shows that C3's movment into SE Asia is ancient". That's what I understand, otherwise we'd see a more representative array of "Altaic" lineages, as happens in Central Asia, where we know that the flow is quite recent.

     
  27. terryt

    August 16, 2011 at 7:11 am

    "The map is not very trustworthy". Because you don't like what it shows? "So it should have scattered from the Altaic area". That's a change, coming from you. "as happens in Central Asia, where we know that the flow is quite recent". Do we really 'know' that? Isn't that an example of you throwing opinions around without backing them in any way and you do that all the time?

     
  28. Maju

    August 16, 2011 at 7:35 am

    I told you WHY the map is not trustworthy, Terry. Don't be a dick, ok?"Do we really 'know' that?"Yes, I think we do, otherwise there's no reason for it to be so concentrated in certain specific "ultra-nomadic" populations (Kazakhs notably) and almost absent in others which are surely more stable ones (Altaians, Uzbeks).

     
  29. terryt

    August 16, 2011 at 8:09 am

    That is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. "I told you WHY the map is not trustworthy" Hardly. You told me why you THINK one aspect of the map is not trustworthy. And that claim doesn't stand scrutiny: "My best clue is Buryats, who live by Lake Baikal, and are mostly Y-DNA N and yet the map happily claims the Buryat country as one of the highest in Y-DNA C3". Turns out you are probably wrong in that claim: http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/528772/1/"Derenko et al. 2005: n=238; P(xR1): 4 (1.7%); R1(xR1a1): 2 (0.8); R1a1: 5 (2.1); N(xN3): 3 (1.3); N3: 45 (18.9); C: 152 (63.9); F(xG,H,I,J,K): 4 (1.7); G: 1 (0.4); I: 1 (0.4); K(xL,N,P): 21 (8.8)". And: "Hammer et al. 2006: n=81;C3(xC3c1): 55.6%; C3c1: 4.9; G: 1.2%; J: 1,2%; N(xN3a): 2.5%; N3a: 28.4%; 2,5% O3-Line1; 3,7% R (1 man belonging to R1a1)". In both cases C outnumbers N, as it does in a third list. I'm sure Ebizur will be able to enlighten as to the truth. But interestingly this link on Y-hap N doesn't mention Buryats at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)The only relevant remark is: "Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region) approximately 4,000 years ago".

     
  30. Maju

    August 16, 2011 at 8:13 am

    Ok, I was wrong then, I guess. My ref. is McDonalds' maps but this seems more serious. I trust that Black Man is reporting faithfully.

     
  31. terryt

    August 17, 2011 at 3:24 am

    "Ok, I was wrong then, I guess". Thank you. Now perhaps we can get down to seriously discussing things. "My ref. is McDonalds' maps but this seems more serious". I've checked and even the McDonald map has over 50% Y-hap C (orange). But you may now be able to appreciate the map of Iran's flora and fauna shown about halfway down the page in this link (section 3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_IranQuote: "More than one-tenth of the country is forested. The most extensive growths are found on the mountain slopes rising from the Caspian Sea, with stands of oak, ash, elm, cypress, and other valuable trees. On the plateau proper, areas of scrub oak appear on the best-watered mountain slopes" Ideal human habitat. And note the stretch of 'forest steppe' and 'forest woodland' that reaches all the way into Afghanistan. Admittedly in a narrow stip but we both agree that F's major expansion didn't occur until it had reached the Indian subcontinent. And just over the border in Afghanistan itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Afghanistan"Although Herat is approximately 240 m (787 ft) lower than Kandahar, the summer climate there is more temperate, and the climate throughout the year is far from disagreeable. From May to September, the wind blows from the northwest with great force, and this extends across the country to Kandahar. The winter is tolerably mild; snow melts as it falls, and even on the mountains does not lie long. Three years out of four at Herat it does not freeze hard enough for the people to store ice" And this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herat"Herodotus described Herāt as the bread-basket of Central Asia". Sounds like a nice region. And the previous link has this to say concerning the vegetation of Afghanistan: "The characteristic distribution of vegetation on the mountains of Afghanistan is worthy of attention. The great mass of it is confined to the main ranges and their immediate off-shoots, whilst on the more distant and terminal prolongations it is almost entirely absent; in fact, these are naked rock and stone". So vegetation is sufficient for human shelter and survival along many of the foothills of the mountain ranges. Now all we have to do is find evidence for human habitation during the Paleolithic.

     
  32. Maju

    August 17, 2011 at 7:59 am

    So you think that the Iranian and Afghan semideserts are cool but the Indian Ocean coastal ones not? Probably not the real case, much less in the midst of the ice age. But, hell, people adapt to almost everything, including Kandahar's climate.

     
  33. terryt

    August 18, 2011 at 8:51 am

    "So you think that the Iranian and Afghan semideserts are cool but the Indian Ocean coastal ones not?" I'd say the northern inland regions are almost certainly cooler than the southern coastal region, and, as the link says, not nearly as arid. In fact not even close to 'semi-desert'. Largely forested. Described as 'forest steppe' and 'forest woodland'. "Probably not the real case, much less in the midst of the ice age" The inland route would be even cooler in an ice age but then, if the OoA is older than 70,000 years such a route would have been used before any ice age developed. "But, hell, people adapt to almost everything, including Kandahar's climate". Thanks for bringing that up. You have consistently claimed that humans are capable of exploiting a range of environments, and I'm sure they would have less difficulty adapting to the reasonably well-vegetated (although cooler) inland region rather than the very arid coastal region.

     
  34. terryt

    August 18, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Just for interest I looked up Kandahar in Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar"Temperatures peak in July with a 24-hour daily average of around 31.9 °C (89.4 °F)". That's not much hotter than here, although admittedly an 'average'. "Winter begins in December and sees most of its precipitation in the form of rain. Temperatures average 5.1 °C (41.2 °F) in January, although lows can drop well below freezing". That is cooler than here, but it would have a 'continental' climate: hot summers and cold winters. The climate here is ameliorated by the sea on both sides. And rainfall is much lower than here. Mind you, here is the entry for Madrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid"The Madrid region features a Continental Mediterranean climate (Köppen Csa)[25][26] with cold winters due to altitude (650 m over the sea level in Alicante), including sporadic snowfalls and minimum temperatures often below freezing. Summer tends to be hot with temperatures that consistently surpass 30 °C (86 °F) in July and August and rarely above 40 °C (104 °F). Due to Madrid's altitude and dry climate, diurnal ranges are often significant during the summer. Precipitation is concentrated in the autumn and spring. It is particularly sparse during the summer, taking the form of one or two showers and/or thunderstorms a month". So sounds like Kandahar is a more pleasant place to live than Madrid! Madrid does have more rain though. As a comparison here is my closest main town: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whangarei"Whangarei falls in the oceanic climate zone. It is the warmest and the northernmost city in NZ. Summer days occasionally exceed 30°C, and there is plentiful rainfall spread relatively evenly over the year … Whangarei is roughly the antipodal point of Tangier, Morocco". And much more rain than either Kandahar or Madrid.

     
  35. Maju

    August 18, 2011 at 10:52 am

    Coastal regions are usually more temperate. Inland areas tend be cooler and hotter at different moments (day/night or winter/summer). Whatever the case, heat is good for us, in principle, because we don't have fur (except the "hat") but instead massive distribution of sweating glands designed to withstand the tropical heat – even at noon say some, arguing that this would have allowed our ancestors to compete with lions and hyenas, who, furry as they are, have to rest with so much heat. Cold on the other hand is bad. We need artificial stuff like clothes and fire to combat it and survive. It may drive innovation but it is potentially deadly too. "if the OoA is older than 70,000 years such a route would have been used before any ice age developed". I do not understand. We are in a permanent Ice Age, except for the interglaciars. Now we are at an interglaciar and there was another maybe 120-130 Ka ago (according to the Vostok-Petit data) but all the rest was Ice Age, before and after. Now, within the glaciation, there was a tendency to worsening conditions and more or less abrupt variations, it seems. You may mean the Abbasia Pluvial, which was roughly between 120-90 Ka., i.e. the beginning of the latest glaciation cycle was humid in the Saharan and Arabian deserts. Maybe it affected Afghanistan but for the same logic it must have affected Makran, whose aridity is a product of the Arabian desert essentially. However since c. 90 Ka. the temperature kept falling culminating in the Toba-induced ash winter c. 74 Ka ago. A less important second Pluvial (Mosuterian Pluvial) would follow and then again temperatures would collapse until a low limit when the cold subc-cyle ended (temporarily), starting the Holocene. "and I'm sure they would have less difficulty adapting to the reasonably well-vegetated (although cooler)"…Have you ever looked at pics of Kandahar? Well vegetated my aunt!air view, you can see the "vegetation" behind the mud hutsvillage amd mountains near Kandaharone with some vegetation so obviously product of irrigation that hurts (look at the arid surroundings).It doesn't look much better than Makran to me. I guess that with appropriate irrigation works, what means only since Neolithic, it can support small nations, but in the Paleolithic it was just like Makran: a harsh area that limited the number of inhabitants and hence acted as genetic buffer. South Asia is fully surrounded by the West by that kind of semideserts (plus some full fledged deserts in Iran) that make sure that West and South Asia are clearly different regions.

     
  36. terryt

    August 19, 2011 at 8:19 am

    "I do not understand. We are in a permanent Ice Age, except for the interglaciars". But from your link you can see that conditions were ameliorated at times. The greatest cooling is around 70,000 years ago and again around 40-20,000 years ago. And around 120-130,000 years ago the climate was particularly warm. "Have you ever looked at pics of Kandahar? Well vegetated my aunt!" My original comment had nothing to do with Kandahar. "It doesn't look much better than Makran to me". But both places are much less inviting than are Northern Iran and Herat. "Cold on the other hand is bad. We need artificial stuff like clothes and fire to combat it and survive". But humans obviously adapted to cold very early in the piece. Neanderthals could survive in it, and so could East Asians. Extreme aridity is very difficult to survive in. You mentioned the McDonald maps a couple of days ago. Take a look at the Y-hap pie diagram for 'Persia'. Y-haps E3b, F, G, I, J, K, L, O, Q, R(xR1), R1a and R1b. No C or D, but talk about haplogroup diversity! Some are obviously downstream versions but does that apply to all of them? E3b is obviously the derived E1b1b1, almost certainly from the Horn of Africa, and almost certainly the connection between Iran and Africa is long after any 'original' OoA. I presume the O is O2a, connected originally to the Austro-Asiatic speaking SE Asians. But R(xR1) is interseting. Presumably R2, the India haplogroup. R derives from P, which derives from MNOPS: SE Asian again. But to me R1b at least is almost certainly Iranian in origin. Perhaps R1a is too, although it has its greatest diversity in India. I've no idea which Q is represented. All I know is that Q became the most common Y-hap in America and remains commonest in Asia amoung the Selkups and Kets of the Yenisey River catchment. Perhaps Q moved back to Iran from there, but its ancestor must have moved through Iran at some stage. K is presumably T. L and T both look to be Indian/Pakistani to me and, it seems, to you. But possibly from near the border with Iran/Afghanistan. What is the F? Whatever, the McDonald map of Europe shows it present as far west as Georgia. So presumably it is F3, a basal F haplogroup. I and J are the same so that leaves just G and IJ. To me it seems obvious that both coalesced somewhere near Iran, if not actually in it. I know yoy prefer using mtDNA haplogroups, so a few observations. As well as 'Persia' the McDonald mtDNA map has a group that lives partly in Iran: 'Kurds'. Persia has M, N, I, W, R, HV, H, J, T, U and K. We can argue till the cows come haome as to whether R coalesced in SE or S Asia, but we both agree it is an immigrant into Iran. That leaves M, N, I and W. The Kurds and Persians share their basal N haplogroups although M is absent in the Kurds, as is I. But I has been included in N1'5 now and that could easily be present in the Kurds. You know my position on the western N haplogroups' presence in Iran so we can leave it. But to me there is no reason why the Iranian members of these haplogroups coalesced anywhere other than where they are found today. The end result is that we can easily see evidence for a movement of haplogroups through Iran rather than along the coast.

     
  37. Maju

    August 19, 2011 at 8:50 am

    "The greatest cooling is around 70,000 years ago and again around 40-20,000 years ago".But those are not the ice age, just extremes, for example the low c. 70 Ka was caused by the Toba super-volcano. "My original comment had nothing to do with Kandahar".You actually did mention Kandahar at length:Just for interest I looked up Kandahar in Wiki.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar"Temperatures peak in July with a 24-hour daily average of around 31.9 °C (89.4 °F)".That's not much hotter than here, although admittedly an 'average'.However I did miss this: But both places are much less inviting than are Northern Iran and Herat. Wild grass at Herat Jewish cemetery, at air runway (1), (2).What's up with you? Can't you even google a few photos before you issue your funny claims? Those areas are arid. More: they are just East of the major deserts Dasht-e Kavir and Dasht-e Lut of Iran, which are just the driest centers in an otherwise arid landscape dominating most of Iran. The only way to avoid semidesert In East Iran, in present conditions, is by the border with Uzbekistan. That would bring us to the Kara Kum and Kyzil Kum deserts and only a narrow "oasis strip" by the south of former Soviet Central Asia allows connection between the Zagros/Caucasus and Altai or South Asia. Conditions of dryness and cold should have in general increased quite a bit in the regular glacial periods, with the exception of the pluvials possibly (but pluvials are defined at the Sahara, not Central Asia, so unsure). Notice please all the work I could have avoided doing if you bothered checking your facts.

     
  38. Maju

    August 19, 2011 at 9:14 am

    "Neanderthals could survive in [extreme cold], and so could East Asians"…Other Homo species are irrelevant here. For what I know they might well have been furry (or have technology we did not have). "Take a look at the Y-hap pie diagram for 'Persia'. Y-haps E3b, F, G, I, J, K, L, O, Q, R(xR1), R1a and R1b. No C or D, but talk about haplogroup diversity! Some are obviously downstream versions but does that apply to all of them?"All those lineages can be described as F* (????), G and IJK. You must first understand the phylogeny at the level of F node and not just talk of "diversity" in general. Also you must understand that the Zagros area (the most habitable part of Iran) was Neanderthal territory for long, while our kin effectively expanded in SE Asia and surroundings. "What is the F? Whatever, the McDonald map of Europe shows it present as far west as Georgia".F* is still reported in the Caucasus BUT also in South Asia, where most known sublineages of F still do exist. All F basal sublineages exist in South Asia, except G. That is a basal diversity index of (8/9) 89%. Unbeatable!!!In West Asia, second in this matter admittedly, the index is of only (4/9) 44%, half that of South Asia. Remember please that all within IJK must be considered as a single subclade and hence as 1/9 (or more precisely 1/8 plus "asterisk") of all F basal diversity. Do not insist again in pretending that somehow downstream diversity increases the basal diversity of F (or any other macro-haplogroup) at all. It'd be like pretending that Europe has the highest diversity for mtDNA N just because there are so many documented subclades of H and U… ridiculous!"G and IJ. To me it seems obvious that both coalesced somewhere near Iran"…I can agree with that but that is downstream of F, after the F node, which coalesced in South Asia without doubt. "That leaves M, N, I and W".Virtually all Western "M" is M1 and virtually all "N" (N-other) is N1(xI). Don't sweat it, ok?

     
  39. terryt

    August 20, 2011 at 8:16 am

    "Notice please all the work I could have avoided doing if you bothered checking your facts". Notice please the facts I pointed out that you are so keen to ignore. "More: they are just East of the major deserts Dasht-e Kavir and Dasht-e Lut of Iran, which are just the driest centers in an otherwise arid landscape dominating most of Iran". So? What's your point? The link actually said: "More than one-tenth of the country is forested". And take another look at the map. The dark green and light green are described as 'forest'. Forest does not grow in arid regions. And the 'forest' stretches all the way to the Afghan border. "That would bring us to the Kara Kum and Kyzil Kum deserts and only a narrow 'oasis strip' by the south of former Soviet Central Asia allows connection between the Zagros/Caucasus and Altai or South Asia". That is surely enough of a continuous strip for migration along it. "You actually did mention Kandahar at length" Yes. But not in relation to a possible migration route. So have a look at this vegetation map of Afghanistan: http://www.ag-afghanistan.de/files/vegetationmap.jpgThe spots and vertical dashes are described as 'woodlands', as is the khaki-grey. Therefore not arid, and reasonably productive human habitat. The 'woodlands' of Afghanistan form a virtually continuous link with the 'forest' of Iran. So to repeat: "Notice please all the work I could have avoided doing if you bothered checking your facts". Only because you refused to accept those facts.

     
  40. terryt

    August 20, 2011 at 8:39 am

    "Also you must understand that the Zagros area (the most habitable part of Iran) was Neanderthal territory for long, while our kin effectively expanded in SE Asia and surroundings". We don't actually 'know' that. You 'assume' it. "I can agree with that but that is downstream of F, after the F node, which coalesced in South Asia without doubt". Without doubt? I don't think so. "Remember please that all within IJK must be considered as a single subclade and hence as 1/9 (or more precisely 1/8 plus 'asterisk') of all F basal diversity". The 'basal diversity' of IJK consists of two haplogroups: IJ and K(xIJ). Hardly convincing evidence for a South Asian origin. In fact argues against such an origin. And check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA) The nine F haplogroups are: F*, F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, G, H, IJK. Just quoting the article and altering the order a little: "IJK (L15/S137, L16/S138)G (M201) – Mainly in Caucasus and Near East.F3 (P96, M282) – In South Iran and South India.[13] Also in Armenia[14] and rare in Netherlands".That's three for SW Asia. And: "F* Specially in India[8] and the Caucasus, and rare through Asia". So that could be four for SW Asia. "F1 (P91, P104) – Found in Sri Lanka. F4 (P254) – In Sri Lanka" Sri Lanka? Not India? And: "F2 (M427, M428) – In Lahu people (China)". Again, not India. Finally: "F5 (M481) – Found in southeastern IndiaH (M69, M370) – Typical for the Indian subcontinent". So three in SW Asia, one common to both SW Asia and India, two in India, two in Sri Lanka and one is East Asia. Of course I realise you're going to claim the article is not very trustworthy because it conflicts with your belief.

     
  41. terryt

    August 20, 2011 at 10:17 am

    You may find this an interesting read concerning Tasmanian Aborigines. http://austhrutime.com/aboriginal_occupation_south_central_tasmania_pleistocene.htmQuote: "They say that the range of variability associated with modern humans is greater than has been realised previously. Evidence has been found that there is not a 1-to-1 correlation between the advent of modern Homo sapiens and any particular classes of stone tools (Trinkhaus, 1986; Foley, 1987). It has been pointed out that, though the first people to arrive in Australia were essentially modern humans, the morphology and technology of their stone artefacts 'could come out of the African or European Lower Palaeolithic (Gowlett, 1987: 215), a pattern that had been recognised by early researchers (Jones, 1977: 190-1; White, 1977: 24)". So we cannot rely on stone technology as an indicator of Homo sapiens as opposed to other humans. "In the subantarctic environment that existed in Tasmania during the glacial phase the diet of lean meat would not provide all essential nutrients in late winter and early spring seasonal fluctuations, with the absence of plant carbohydrates". 'Subantarctic'. That would be fairly cold. And this link is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-arid_climate"A more precise definition is given by the Köppen climate classification that treats steppe climates (BSk and BSh) as intermediates between desert climates (BW) and humid climates in ecological characteristics and agricultural potential. Semi-arid climates tend to support short or scrubby vegetation, with semi-arid areas usually being dominated by either grasses or shrubs". So 'semi-arid' is different from 'arid'. Note that Australia has both 'hot semi-arid' and 'cold semi-arid' regions. Aborigines lived in both regions. I have visited the hot semi-arid regions of both Australia and of Africa. In Africa it is known as 'the Sahel' and people have lived there for a very long time. My brother lives in the cold semi-arid region of Southeast Australia so I'm familiar with that too.

     
  42. terryt

    August 20, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Sorry. Me again. Take a look at this map, 'Distribution of Arid and Hyper Arid areas of Iran': http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Counprof/Iran/Iranfig4.htmNote the southeastern coastal region. Here's the original link which I'm sure you will find interesting: http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Counprof/Iran/Iran.htm

     
  43. Maju

    August 20, 2011 at 11:28 am

    "More than one-tenth of the country is forested". The Balochistan forest…Look at the map and think again: Iran is huge and most people live in the Western third of the state for a reason. Eastern Iran is a semidesert to desert area that is almost uninhabited. But not totally so. This is true for Balochistan as for other areas. "So have a look at this vegetation map of Afghanistan": All the West strip is desertic: sand desert, salicornium desert, other deserts, ephemeral desert, semidesert…"The 'woodlands' of Afghanistan form a virtually continuous link with the 'forest' of Iran".Via Uzbekistan mostly, you are describing the Silk Road, the "oasis zone" of Central Asia, nothing else. It is unclear to me how this area was in the cold and dry periods that make up most of the Ice Age. Whatever the case, it is more likely that this was the Neanderthal and not the Sapiens route, because what are in the Zagros are? Neanderthals! What are in Altai? Neanderthals!Only since c. 50 Ka. and more like 40 Ka. we start seeing Homo sapiens in all this area instead of just "archaics". "We don't actually 'know' that. You 'assume' it". We know it. Have you ever heard of Shanidar? "The 'basal diversity' of IJK"…… doesn't matter almost at all. I am talking of F, and IJK is just one out of 9 basal sublineages. Just like the USA does not matter for the Medieval history of England, which was before. Just like you do not matter to explain your great-grandfather. "Sri Lanka? Not India?"LOL, burning nail and extreme clownish contradiction alert! You always call "India" to all South Asia (I'm generally more careful and I talk of South Asia instead) and now you come with "Sri Lanka is not India"?!Well, I said South Asia all the time, mind you. The division between "India" and "Sri Lanka" is arbitrary and certainly not anything Prehistoric. "So three in SW Asia, one common to both SW Asia and India, two in India, two in Sri Lanka" F*, F3 and IJK do exist in South Asia, at least as much as in West Asia. I did got it wrong F2 maybe but it's still 7/9 in South Asia (and that means 6 in India Republic at least). Most of these lineages do not exist in West Asia (4/9 – G, IJK, F* and F3), much less in East Asia (3/9 – IJK, F* and F2).Don't fuck with my mind, please. It's tiresome."Of course I realise you're going to claim the article is not very trustworthy because it conflicts with your belief". Not at all. Your interpretation is a horrible deformation of the facts it narrates (up to the point of building a lie out of truthful data, what is so nasty that I promise to ban you if you do again) but the list is probably fine.

     
  44. Maju

    August 20, 2011 at 11:51 am

    "Trinkhaus, 1986"LOL, Trinkaus and misspelled. "So we cannot rely on stone technology as an indicator of Homo sapiens as opposed to other humans". We cannot rely on Trinkaus. While it is true that there is not necessarily a strict correlation between toolkits and species there is still a more than statistically significant one and hence if we see Mousterian and say Neanderthal, we are very likely to be correct. In any case, there are some actual bones which are like milestones describing the geography of each species before the westwards colonization by our ancestors. "So 'semi-arid' is different from 'arid'".And arid is different from desert, etc. It's not me but you who is messing around with categories that were not even the same 12,000 years ago. In any case, when you compare the alleged Koppen map over there with other local maps, it happens to be wrong all over the place: Makran is arid, not desert. Same for the southern coasts of Arabia, etc. According to your links, in the Balochi zone (Makran), you can find today the following vegetation: Avicennia officinalis (mangrove tree), Rhizophora mucronata (mangrove tree), Acacia arabica (mimosa), Prosopis spicigera (a pea low tree), Panicum antidotale (rhizomatic grass), Pennisetum (grass), Cenchrus ciliaris (grass), Tricholaena teneriffae (grass?), Taverniera (legume), Astragalus (legume bushes), Rhynchosia (bean-related), Amygdalus scoparia (almond tree/bush), Amygdalus horrida (almond tree/bush), Pistacia khinjuk (pistachio), Stocksia brahuica (?), Pteropyrum aucheri (rosacea).If there are pistachios, almonds and acacias… not to mention mangroves (fish, crabs, snails…) you can live there. I think that you cannot insist that the coast was or is inhabitable. It may not be able to support a large army ignorant of the country's peculiarities but for sure it can support knowledgeable small forager clans.

     
  45. terryt

    August 21, 2011 at 8:22 am

    "Eastern Iran is a semidesert to desert area that is almost uninhabited". Yes. But the north is far from uninhabited. "We know it. Have you ever heard of Shanidar?" A few fossils from a single site in Kurdistan. "Via Uzbekistan mostly, you are describing the Silk Road, the 'oasis zone' of Central Asia, nothing else. It is unclear to me how this area was in the cold and dry periods that make up most of the Ice Age". Generally speaking as climate warms the vegetation zones move south and/or to lowere altitudes. The reverse during warmer phases. With increasing aridity forest zones contract and grassland expands. The reverse during pluvials. So the vegetation zones were presumably still present during the ice age. They just shifted. "I am talking of F, and IJK is just one out of 9 basal sublineages" As are G and F3. So that's 3 of 9. "F*, F3 and IJK do exist in South Asia, at least as much as in West Asia". Not F3 and only downstream mutations of IJK. "In any case, when you compare the alleged Koppen map over there with other local maps, it happens to be wrong all over the place: Makran is arid, not desert. Same for the southern coasts of Arabia, etc". The other map shows the same. It's by Hossein Badripour and is part of an FAO report. The map is much the same sort of thing I was making when I first graduated. It is very likely to be correct. "If there are pistachios, almonds and acacias… not to mention mangroves (fish, crabs, snails…) you can live there". Not every item of vegetation is found in the one place. "I think that you cannot insist that the coast was or is inhabitable. It may not be able to support a large army ignorant of the country's peculiarities but for sure it can support knowledgeable small forager clans". But extremely unlikely to have been any sort of route to anywhere.

     
  46. terryt

    August 22, 2011 at 2:50 am

    I really admire the way you so blatantly massage the data to make it fit your belief. "IJK is just one out of 9 basal sublineages". I find it very difficult to take seriously your belief that IJK coalesced in South Asia when the downstream mutations peel off progressively from west to east: from Iran all the way to Melanesia. "All F basal sublineages exist in South Asia, except G. That is a basal diversity index of (8/9) 89%. Unbeatable!!!" Surely the diversity of F in South Asia is a product of the regions large size rather than being 'proof' of origin. "What are in Altai? Neanderthals!" Not so, according to the evidence from Denisova. "Via Uzbekistan mostly, you are describing the Silk Road, the 'oasis zone' of Central Asia, nothing else". Surely it makes sense that the Silk Road would have followed the easiest pathway between east and west. Consequently it should be no surprise that humans have used it whenever conditions have allowed. "Don't fuck with my mind, please. It's tiresome". I'm trying to open it, not fuck with it.

     
  47. Maju

    August 22, 2011 at 4:30 am

    "I find it very difficult to take seriously your belief that IJK coalesced in South Asia"…I have not even arrived to that point yet. I do not have any such belief anyhow (it's a tossed coin, so say Balochistan, which is right in between – and will irk you anyhow). My only point is where did F coalesce? With 7/9 basal sublineages existing in South Asia (compared to 4 and 3 for competing regions respectively, regions located west and east of South Asia, BTW) the answer is very clear: South Asia. "Surely the diversity of F in South Asia is a product of the regions large size rather than being 'proof' of origin". South Asia is not larger than West Eurasia (see this equal area projection map, for example). It is in fact the smaller of the three great regions of Eurasia. Besides, if there was such a demographic flourishing in West Asia, as you seem to claim, we should have some genetic evidence of it. There is absolutely nothing! And the reason is that our species was restricted to very specific low quality (dry) areas in the South, the most important of which may have been the Persian Gulf 'Oasis', a swampy area now submerged (PGO hereafter). While it's plausible that the PGO played some role in in the colonization of West Eurasia, specially in relation to Y-DNA IJ and later T maybe, and some mtDNA lineages like M1… all the genetic evidence, certainly all the mtDNA evidence but also the Y-DNA one point to centers of dispersal further east in South and SE Asia. You are and will be unable to change the reality that F has most diversity in South Asia, double than in other regions, which are regions extending to the West and East of South Asia in any case. You have to be as stubborn as a Biblical literalist to deny this evidence, which is reinforced by all the mtDNA evidence and all the other Y-DNA evidence, for example the distribution of Y-DNA C, F's "little brother".IJ and G alone cannot change that reality because they have a second and third tier status in relation to the real thing: macro-haplogroups F, C and D (and their female equivalents M and N). "Not so, according to the evidence from Denisova". A single cave in the far North of the region inhabited by hybrids of Neanderthal and some other Homo species, probably H. erectus. There is clear evidence of Neanderthals in Altai, but south of Denisova. And you know it already (so why do you even argue this?)"Surely it makes sense that the Silk Road would have followed the easiest pathway between east and west".There was also a naval Silk Route, it's just less famous. But Marco Polo himself returned through it and it was the naval Silk Route what brought Vasco de Gama to "the Indies". Also there were no domestic camels in the age we are discussing and these were critical in building up a stable Silk Road by land. Not in vain they are said to be the boats of the desert. "I'm trying to open it, not fuck with it". You cheat with the evidence as if you thought you could outsmart me and get away with lies and manipulations. I don't like that at all.

     
  48. terryt

    August 23, 2011 at 9:17 am

    "You cheat with the evidence as if you thought you could outsmart me and get away with lies and manipulations. I don't like that at all". No Maju. It is you who cheats with the evidence. Even the authors of these Wiki links disagree with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ_(Y-DNA)Quote: "The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup IJK in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia". And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJK_(Y-DNA)Quote: "According to Family Tree DNA, the two SNPs defining this haplogroup unite I, J, and K within F as a 'brother clade' to G and H.[1] FTDNA further states that haplogroup IJK's relationship with haplogroup F1 through F4 is unknown". So G could very easily be 'older' than 'F1 through F4', especially if those Fs are monophyletic. "My only point is where did F coalesce? With 7/9 basal sublineages existing in South Asia (compared to 4 and 3 for competing regions respectively, regions located west and east of South Asia, BTW) the answer is very clear: South Asia". As you can see, the answer is far from 'clear', especially for IJK and G. "South Asia is not larger than West Eurasia" Maju. One thing we have come to agree on is that the area available for H. sapiens in Iran/Anatolia/Levant was considerably smaller than the whole region. On the other hand most of South Asia was quite habitable. "for example the distribution of Y-DNA C, F's 'little brother'". 'Little brother'? And this from someone who's just accused ME of being 'as stubborn as a Biblical literalist to deny this evidence'. You've just recently finally admitted that C3 is centred on Lake Baikal. And you know very well that C1 is Japanese, C2 is Wallacean and C4 is Australian. Admittedly you are yet to concede that C5 is concentrated in Pakistan and Nepal, rather than throughout South Asia, so you still have a little more to learn. "There was also a naval Silk Route, it's just less famous". And useless until boating technology became sufficiently developed.

     
  49. Maju

    August 23, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    They do not disagree with me, Terry, I also think (I am sure) that IJ coalesced in West Asia. It is not too relevant for the origin of its "grandfather" F however. "You've just recently finally admitted that C3 is centred on Lake Baikal".I have not "admitted" anything like that. All I acknowledged is higher frequencies in Buryat Republic than I thought/remembered. "And you know very well that C1 is Japanese, C2 is Wallacean and C4 is Australian. Admittedly you are yet to concede that C5 is concentrated in Pakistan and Nepal, rather than throughout South Asia"…Pakistan is South Asia and so is Nepal but whatever the location of C5, C as a whole must have coalesced in SE Asia and scattered quickly northwards and southwards. Because C is distributed essentially along the Western Coast of the Pacific Ocean.

     
  50. terryt

    August 24, 2011 at 3:23 am

    "I also think (I am sure) that IJ coalesced in West Asia. It is not too relevant for the origin of its 'grandfather' F however". It is relevant for the origin of IJK though. The comment actually was, 'Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup IJK in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East'. That strongly suggests that IJK was already in West Asia or the Middle East by the time that IJ arose. Which would show that KMNOPS moved from there into South Asia rather than that IJ moved out from the Indian subcontinent. All this shows that it is extremely unlikely that IJK or its ancestor had ever been anywhere near South Asia. Its 'grandfather' F ('brothers' actually) had presumaby also moved into South Asia from West Asia or the Middle East. "Pakistan is South Asia and so is Nepal but whatever the location of C5, C as a whole must have coalesced in SE Asia and scattered quickly northwards and southwards". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C_(Y-DNA)Quote: "C5 (M356) Found with low frequency in South Asia, Central Asia, and Southwest Asia" Central Asia and Southwest Asia? C could easily have separated into C3 and C5 in Central Asia. "Because C is distributed essentially along the Western Coast of the Pacific Ocean". Have a look at the map of C's distribution here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SwWxkQGTZYI/AAAAAAAACCw/o3ls7yD1sig/s1600/maps-chiaroni.pngCould you please tell me what in the map demonstrates that C reached East Asia via the Indian subcontinent. And while you're at it could you tell me what element of G's distribution demonstrates that G emerged from the India subcontinent. And the map of J's distribution tends to indicate that the downstream haplogroup J was the first modern Y-hap into Yemen, not IJ or IJK. In other words the region, so perfect for human habitation and migration, had become uninhabited. And Y-hap J reached Socotra before J1 had begun its own expansion, and Socotra was reached no earlier than about 12,000 years ago.

     

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