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Ukraine’s Neolithic and Bronze Age ancient mtDNA

12 Sep
A doctoral thesis on ancient Ukrainian mtDNA has recently become freely available (h/t Kristiina):
Jeremy R. Newton, Ancient Mitochondrial DNA From Pre-historic Southeastern Europe: The Presence of East Eurasian Haplogroups Provides Evidence of Interactions with South Siberians Across the Central Asian Steppe Belt. Grand Valley State University (thesis), 2011. Freely availableLINK
The key element of this study is table 1:

Location of sites (fig. 3):

Notice that the “Kurgan sites” (D1.8, L8 and L15) are not from the first Kurgan arrivals but rather from a late layer, surely Srubna culture, which is generally believed to be proto-Cimmerian.
The most striking element probably is the presence of relatively high frequencies of mtDNA C since Neolithic times. However this is not inconsistent with previous findings (Desarkissian 2011) of mtDNA C (C1) among NE European Epipaleolithic hunter-gatherers, surely precursors of modern Finnic peoples. It means that the Siberian element of East Asian affinity today best preserved among Uralic peoples, was present in Europe before Neolithic and that it had an impact (21%) even in presumably non-Uralic populations such as Epigravettian derived Dniepr-Don.
This in turn may well explain the subtle Siberian affinity elements sometimes apparent in much of Northern and Central Europe, because these Eastern European peoples made in turn significant demic impacts in those areas, first with the Pitted Ware culture (clearly derived from Dniepr-Don: similar pottery and burial styles) that affected parts of the Southern Baltic, via Belarus, and later with the Kurgan waves of Indoeuropean-speaking invaders.
Maybe a bit more intriguing is the coincidence of C4a lineages in all the three kurgans of SW Ukraine. It may be just a coincidence or a very specific ethnic provenance of the princesses of that sub-group but the thesis argues for these being direct descendants of the Neolithic C4a lineage found in Ya34. I must say I am skeptic but it is not totally impossible. If real, it would imply that all C4a3 and C4a6 haplogroups (at least) are of Eastern European coalescence, what I find a bit difficult to accept, to say the least – but who knows?
An element in favor of such model is that neither of these C sublineages seems to be present in West Siberian ancient mtDNA, while no Oriental lineages altogether have been found in Central Asia before the Iron Age.
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160 Comments

Posted by on September 12, 2013 in aDNA, Bronze Age, European origins, mtDNA, Neolithic, Ukraine

 

160 responses to “Ukraine’s Neolithic and Bronze Age ancient mtDNA

  1. Kristiina

    September 13, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    I compared the DnieperDonetz C haplotypes with other ancient specimens and found out that ”DD ya 45” shares the same mutations with Baraba Steppe C (6-3 kya), Karelian Bol’shoy C (3.5 kya), Pazyryk C (Iron Age), Baikal Lokomotiv C (7-6 kya) and Ust’-Ida C (4-5 kya). I also found out that between Dnieper-Donetz U5a and Baraba Stariy Sad U5a there is a 1 step difference. Dnieper-Donetz U3 ( Ya 19) is also found in Baraba Chicha and in Sampula and Daheyan in Xinjiang. Haplogroup H is wide spread in Eurasia, but I could find only one match with Dnieper-Donetz H haplotypes: Dnieper-Donetz H (DD33) is found also in Gawaerk in Xinjiang.The DD ya 45 haplotype C we find in Dnieper Donetz is the same as the Baraba Steppe Ust Tartas basic haplotype which has 3 mutations and is the most frequent C haplotype. Other Baraba C haplotypes have 1 step differences to Dnieper Donetz C haplotype. In the early Baraba Steppe culture (2000-4000 BC) hg C is the most frequent haplogroup: 16 out of 52 specimens turned out to be C. There is also quite a lot of diversity, as there are six different haplotypes. Xinjiang Xiaohe C4 haplotype shows 1 step, 2 step or 3 step differences to Dnieper Donetz C. It is very interesting that in Dnieper Donetz there seems to be a lot of diversity in Hg C, as all 6 specimens are different on the basis of HVR1. For example in Xinjiang Xiaohe, we have even 14 C specimens and only two haplotypes (on the basis of HVR1). I would say that it cannot be a coincidence that we have in Dnieper Donetz and Xinjiang Xiaohe a lot of C4. In Xiaohe, ydna was mostly R1a, and we would expect to find R1a also in Dnieper Donetz.I have my own ideas on the origin of MtDNA C. As this haplogroup is very old in Altai, possibly 30000 years old, it may not be only of Uralic origin. It could have moved already with NO or Ydna Q.It is also interesting that in Bronze Age kurgans of Central Asia there is no haplogroup C found yet. However, haplogroups T, H and U5a are present.Bronze Age kurgans: 3xT, 2xU5a, 1xH, 1xHV, 1xILate Bronze Age kurgans: 3xH, 1xU1, 1xWWhat strikes me most in Dnieper Donetz is the paucity of haplogroup U: one U1 and one U5a. You say that Pitted Ware culture is clearly derived from Dniepr-Don Culture, but by comparing their MtDNA, they have nothing in common. Does this mean that the similarities are not a result of migrations but cultural diffusion.I added to your previous summary the haplogroup frequencies of the Dnieper Donetz and Swedish ancient MtDNA data.(PWC=Pitted Ware Culture, TRB=Funnel Beaker Culture, DD= Dnieper-Donetz)→ H: BB 87%, Unetice 0%, Dnieper Donetz 35%, Swedish PWC 0%, Swedish TRB 33%→ U(xK): BB: 0%, Unetice: 46%, Dnieper Donetz 12%, Swedish PWC 74%, Swedish TRB 0%→ J: BB: 13%, Unetice 0%, Dnieper Donetz 0%, Swedish PWC 5%, Swedish TRB 33%→ T: BB: 0%, Unetice: 31%, Dnieper Donetz 18%, Swedish PWC 5%, Swedish TRB 33%→ N1: BB: 0%, Unetice 23%, Dnieper Donetz 0%, Swedish PWC 0% (?), Swedish TRB 0%→ W: BB: 13%, Unetice: 0%, Dnieper Donetz 0%, Swedish PWC 0%, Swedish TRB 0%→ X: BB: 13%, Unetice: 0%, Dnieper Donetz 0%, Swedish PWC 0%, Swedish TRB 0%→ C: BB: 0%, Unetice: 0%, Dnieper Donetz 35%, Swedish PWC 0%, Swedish TRB 0%

     
  2. Kristiina

    September 13, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    It seems to me that in Unetice area, Scandinavia and Finland there is plenty of U5a, U5a1, U4. These haplogroups extend to Russia and in Siberia as far East as Lake Baikal. Haplogroup H seems to be frequent in Southern Russia and in BB Culture. I wonder if haplogroup T came from somewhere in Iran and spread, on the one hand, to Central Asia and Volga area and, on the other, through Russia to Northern and Western Europe. Karelian C1 is a mystery and I would really like to know the Ydna that accompanied this haplogroup in Scandinavia.It seems to me that we have:LBK: K, J, N1, T (arriving from Caucasus area?)Scandinavia, Finland: U5a, U4, V, H2, C1Bell Beaker: H, J, W, X Unetice: U5a, U5b, T, N1, I Dnieper Donetz: C, H, TBaraba Steppe: U5a, U4, U2e, C, Z, D, AIf haplogroups H and U are the oldest in Europe, their distribution is different. It seems that the North is dominated by U5 and U4 and H is more wide-spread in the centre, southeast and southwest (?). If Dnieper Donetz kurgan people spoke an Indo-European language, it is surprising that they do not harbour mtDNA U but instead haplogroup H and C. However, the Central Asian kurgan people probably also spoke an Indo-European language and their mtDNA is somewhat different. This only shows that genes are much older than languages and people change languages quite easily.NB “Nineteen Pitted Ware samples from Gotland were dominated by mtDNA haplogroups U4 (x4) (or H1b), U5a (x2), U5 (x1), V(x1) though it should be noted that, because of the low resolution of the tests performed, some haplotypes reported as U4 may actually belong to haplogroup H[1b].“However, I must note that the frequency of H1b is low in Sweden 1.3% and somewhat higher in Karelia (3.3%) and Lithuania (5.5%), and so I would bet that PWC haplotype is not H1 but U4.

     
  3. Maju

    September 13, 2013 at 11:43 pm

    "I compared the DnieperDonetz C haplotypes with other ancient specimens and found out that ”DD ya 45” shares the same mutations with Baraba Steppe C (6-3 kya)"…How come. A cursory look at Molodin's haplotype tree shows that, while the do share the transitions at 298 and 327 (markers for C in general), the other transitions do not match. I see no 061, 357, 278, 218, 327, etc. in Molodin's data. Can you be more precise? My first impression is that the only correlation is that they are all C."The DD ya 45 haplotype C we find in Dnieper Donetz is the same as the Baraba Steppe Ust Tartas basic haplotype"…Ya45 is underived C-root!!! Can there be anything more ambiguous? I hope you are not imagining all C coalescing in West Eurasia, because I do not think that's acceptable at all. "I have my own ideas on the origin of MtDNA C. As this haplogroup is very old in Altai"…Reference, please. AFAIK there is no mtDNA C in Altai at least until the Iron Age. Western lineages in most of it and D only in the Mongolian part. … "possibly 30000 years old"…Probably not at all. Not just it has never been sequenced but C, as CZ and all M8, should originate in NE Asia (Manchuria or whatever) and only migrate westwards since the proto-Uralic flows through Siberia (but North of Altai) associated to Y-DNA N1, which are at least post-LGM. Previously there does not seem to be any East-to-West flow via the North. "I have my own ideas on the origin of MtDNA C."I see you do. What worries me is how coherent they are with the data."It is also interesting that in Bronze Age kurgans of Central Asia there is no haplogroup C found yet."I agree that this is pretty curious and may tell us of a peculiar genetic pool of Samara Valley PIE (and later Indo-Iranian and Tocharian) peoples, less related to proto-Uralic flows than DD apparently. "You say that Pitted Ware culture is clearly derived from Dniepr-Don Culture, but by comparing their MtDNA, they have nothing in common".Some T and U5 but you are right in the general picture, at least for the only documented case, which is in the far edge of Pitted Ware expansion: Götland. But we know almost nothing of the genetic make up of their precursors in Belarus, Lithuania, etc. Whatever the case pottery and burial practices are very similar and AFAIK they are very directly related in the cultural aspect. Maybe, as DD men (with Y-DNA I1?) moved in NW direction, they took local wives, what would distort the picture we get from mtDNA very much indeed. "your previous summary the haplogroup frequencies"…Notice please that I had an error with German Bell Beaker data because the L(xR) (or N(xR)) had not been properly tabbed, so it added up to more than 100%. Both J and H are somewhat less than I reported then.

     
  4. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 12:04 am

    "It seems to me that in Unetice area, Scandinavia and Finland there is plenty of U5a, U5a1, U4. These haplogroups extend to Russia and in Siberia as far East as Lake Baikal".True. And they seem to correlate well with the pre-Neolithic mtDNA pool of Lithuania and NE Poland. So at least in the female lines there seems to be continuity in the Southern Baltic (not sure how they reached Lake Baikal however, must have been via Samara Valley, i.e. the PIE urheimat)."LBK: K, J, N1, T (arriving from Caucasus area?)"More like West Asia in general (at least K is very common in Syrian PPNB) or even the Balcans themselves. No reason to think the Caucasus as origin of pretty much anything at all (but rather a refuge area). "If haplogroups H and U are the oldest in Europe, their distribution is different. It seems that the North is dominated by U5 and U4 and H is more wide-spread in the centre, southeast and southwest (?)".AFAIK in Paleolithic Eastern Europe H only shows up in the NE so far: Sunghir (Gravettian) and Karelia (Epipaleolithic). Only later they begin to show up also in the South – maybe just a random sampling fluke? The fact is that we have only very limited Paleolithic aDNA and that patterns are not too obvious. "However, the Central Asian kurgan people probably also spoke an Indo-European language and their mtDNA is somewhat different. This only shows that genes are much older than languages and people change languages quite easily".While I do not disagree with the argument of people changing languages with relative ease, let's be cautious because it's very plausible that in many cases it were men who carried the languages and what we are looking at here is the female genetic heritage only. … "because of the low resolution of the tests performed, some haplotypes reported as U4 may actually belong to haplogroup H[1b]".That would be interesting and I would say that even quite plausible. "However, I must note that the frequency of H1b is low in Sweden 1.3% and somewhat higher in Karelia (3.3%) and Lithuania (5.5%), and so I would bet that PWC haplotype is not H1 but U4".Have you even checked the modern frequencies of U4? For what I know they are very low, especially West of the Baltic: c. 1-2%. East of the Baltic they may be a bit higher, especially in Russia and Azerbaijan → http://u4haplogroup.blogspot.com/2009/10/u4-distribution-map.html. So no particular reason to think either way.

     
  5. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 11:38 am

    When I look at Table 4 of the thesis, I see that Ya45 has 3 mutations: 16223T, 16298C, 16327T. In Baraba paper the most common C haplotype shows the mutations 223T-298C-327T and is found in the following specimens: Ut4, Ut7, Ut16, Ut37, Pkr10, TK1,TK2, TA9, TA13, TA14, TA16, Sts7. This ancestral type is present in Siberia and Eastern Europe. The other 5 Dnieper Donetz haplotypes do not match with Baraba C haplotypes as Baraba C haplotypes do not harbour the mutations you mentioned.I copy here a piece from my previous text on your blog:Derenko 2002 paper confirms a great variety of C and the existence of M8 and Z in the Altaians and other South-Siberian populations. They say that the coalescence time of all haplotypes to the root of haplogroup C was estimated as 38400 B.P. Then I found out that there is yet another Northern sister branch of C and Z in Udegey, Ulchi and Tofalar. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=18&ved=0CH0QFjAHOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F10595717_Diversity_of_mitochondrial_DNA_lineages_in_South_Siberia%2Ffile%2F79e415089bd2aed828.pdf&ei=dcuPUdSiEsK14ASjkYGYDA&usg=AFQjCNGSuhIQL-DkpzdTiYhA0o93VqejSg&sig2=9pMpNvfDIuIL0OHXbtjt0AThis ancestral C with mutations 16223T, 16298C, 16327T is present in Altai and Southern Siberia in the following frequencies (not in %):Altaians 5Khakassians 4Buryats 2Sojots 1Todjins 4Tuvinians 10Tofalars 5It is more common in the western part than the eastern part of the area.You say that “AFAIK there is no mtDNA C in Altai at least until the Iron Age.”, but I would add that there are not really many Bronze Age samples from Altai. Haplogroup C has not been found in ancient Kazakhstan kurgans but it has been found in Baraba Steppe. In the oldest Krasnoyarsk samples (8) we have one Z1, and in the oldest Pazyryk, Altai samples we have 3xD out of three samples. This Eva Fernández Domínguez’s ”package” contains really a lot of information.http://www.tdx.cat/handle/10803/795There are interesting findings:In Southern Spain (Nerja, Pirulejo) we have L1b, J, H, and in Northern Spain (Abauntz, Tres Montes, Atxuri, Garai ) we have L2, H and J, and in Portugal (Toledo) L3a. Consequently, H seems to have arrived very early in Iberia. Also J seems to have arrived early in Western Europe (in one of Eva’s figures, p. 513 results, it looks like T is coming out of J). Here, the most striking thing is the strong presence of L1, L2 and L3 in Iberia.According to Eupedia, ancient Basques harboured H, J, K, U, T/X, L2. H, J and L2 seem to have been there first, and I would bet that K and X arrived with ydna R1b. This is surely not true if R1b was present in Iberia already in the Mesolithic period.

     
  6. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 11:39 am

    It seems that there has been a lot of MtDNA L in the Near East and Mesopotamia, and recently they identified also Indian MtDNA M in Syria, but these samples are clearly much younger than the samples analyzed by Fernández (8000 A.P.).In this Fernández paper, we also get an insight into Syrian and Mesopotamian ancient mtDNA. Tell Halula: L2, L3a, H, H/T, H/HV/HV1/R/UTell Ramad: H/K, K, CDja’de: H/TMari samples are much younger and are from Sumerian period:Mari: L2, L3a, U4, J1a I would guess that U4 came from the North. This ancestral haplotype 356C has been found in the oldest Krasnoyarsk samples (1800-1400 BC) and is today most common in Russia, Volga-Ural, Altai-Saian, Latvia, Bosnia-Macedonia and Hungary.Fernández left many samples unidentified, but on Internet (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=005251) someone has identified In Tell Halula also H/K, T2b, H5, K (?), R (?), L2a1 In Tell Halula and Mari, there is again quite a lot of hg L, and in Tell Halula and Tell Ramad also H and K seem to be well presented, but to me the most striking thing is the presence of hg C! You can find a discussion on this haplotype on Internet (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HumanMigrations/conversations/topics/4818)(http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HumanMigrations/conversations/topics/4815)This C has even been identified as C1.If MtDNA C has been present in Western Eurasia, it is possible that it was not only moving with haplogroup NO and Q but also with yDNA R1. In this scenario, of course, ydna N may have picked up MtDNA C only after Q and R. :-)According to my paper, frequency of haplogroup U4 in Sweden is 2.9%, so it is a little higher than the frequency of H1b.

     
  7. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    "… Ya45 has 3 mutations: 16223T, 16298C, 16327T. In Baraba paper the most common C haplotype shows the mutations 223T-298C-327T"That means: CRS → (223) → (L3x)R → (298) → M8 → (327) → CIt is the basic C haplotype as described counting from the CRS (H2a)! There is no mystery to that: every C sequence must have that sequence (unless a mutation towards the CRS haplotype is also present, of course). It means nothing but apparently underived C (yeah, that happens: mtDNA is that way because mutations accumulate only slowly and irregularly). "You say that “AFAIK there is no mtDNA C in Altai at least until the Iron Age.”, but I would add that there are not really many Bronze Age samples from Altai".Enough to question your claim. You're making outlandish claims about C being in Altai since very old, even since 30 Ka BP, without a single piece of evidence!!! In fact with ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE AGAINST IT. Not acceptable. "… it has been found in Baraba Steppe".Which is NOT ALTAI and does not have any apparent relation with it except via mtDNA D, as we discussed back in the day. The Barabba area is Siberia proper (even if you insist in calling it "steppe" it is actually taiga), while Altai must be considered part of Central Asia for all archaeological and anthropological purposes I can fathom. "In the oldest Krasnoyarsk samples (8) we have one Z1"…North of Altai, in Siberia proper."… and in the oldest Pazyryk, Altai samples we have 3xD out of three samples". Only in the Mongolian part of Altai (the rest is 100% West Eurasian). It is still not C.

     
  8. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    "H seems to have arrived very early in Iberia"…Yes."Also J seems to have arrived early in Western Europe"The Nerja sequence is JT(x,J,T) as far as I can discern. I know of no other JT sequences in Paleolithic Europe. "… in one of Eva’s figures, p. 513 results, it looks like T is coming out of J"…Not sure if it has any relevance (it could be T coming out of Nerja's JT, after wrongly labeling it as "J"). If so that could be interesting but working with HVS-I sequences only is a total mess, so it can also be absolutely meaningless. "According to Eupedia, ancient Basques harboured H, J, K, U, T/X, L2".Eupedia is quite messy and blatantly nordocentric, much of what it says is plain nonsense. This must refer to Izagirre and De La Rúa 1999 (because of the "T/X" label, unique of that paper), which refers to peripheral Chalcolithic sites only, but I have never seen any L2 in ancient Basque samples (nor modern ones to be fair). Some L(xM,N), surely L3, seems to exist since Paleolithic in Portugal and surely other areas of West Iberia but AFAIK not in the Basque Country. "I would bet that K and X arrived with ydna R1b".Makes no sense to me. If there's any relation between Y-DNA R1b and some mtDNA it must be with H. K, X etc. are too rare lineages (especially among Basques) and must be related to Neolithic arrivals, what in Y-DNA seems to mean G2a, I2a and E1b-V13, at least in SW Europe (probably also J2b but not detected yet in aDNA).

     
  9. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    "It seems that there has been a lot of MtDNA L in the Near East and Mesopotamia"…I just had a cursory look at the haplotypes mentioned at the Fernández thesis ("resultados" section → page 490+, just in case someone wants to know where to look at) and I am quite uncertain that her haplogroup adscription is correct. For example you can't attribute an HVS-I sequence with a single transition at the 223 site to "L3a". It is almost certainly L3(xR) but what exactly within that is impossible to say. Probably the same kind of problems affect other lineages in that same list and I imagine that they are more likely to be N and M sublineages, although probably not all of them. In many cases we will never know without coding region data (cheapskates!)"I would guess that U4 came from the North.".The oldest one I know is from Morocco (Taforalt 12 Ka BP). Then, in the Epipaleolithic, it is found in Portugal, North Germany, Lithuania, Karelia and North Russia. That it does have a dominantly NE distribution does not mean its origins are there, just its most successful niche (quite different thing)."In Tell Halula and Mari, there is again quite a lot of hg L"…My previous look at the matter (checking with PhyloTree) implied some L3 but mostly K (and also some H). "… but to me the most striking thing is the presence of hg C!"If it arrived to Ukraine I see no reason why not to Syria. Interesting anyhow. "If MtDNA C has been present in Western Eurasia, it is possible that it was not only moving with haplogroup NO and Q but also with yDNA R1."I see no relation with Q, which is original from West Asia. R1a may or not have acted as "vector" but let us leave the matter open by the moment. Whatever the case, considering the absolute lack of Oriental lineages, including C, in Central Asia before the Iron Age, the migration route must have been via Siberia (first) and then Eastern Europe.

     
  10. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    "Only in the Mongolian part of Altai (the rest is 100% West Eurasian). It is still not C."It is true that in Krasnoyarsk the oldest haplogroups (1800-1400 BC) are the following:U4, U2e, U5a1, K2b, Z1, T1, T4, H Pazyryk samples are the only samples coming from Altai proper, and all Pazyryk Bronze Age samples are haplogroup D.Pazyryk Iron Age samples include the following haplogroups:2xC, 4xD, 1xA, 1xG2a, 3xK, 2xU5a1, 1xJ, 1Tx1, 1xHV6Please check Table 2 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048904

     
  11. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  12. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    There are no "Pazyrik Bronze Age" samples because Pazyrik is an Iron Age culture. There are Mongolian Altai's Bronze Age samples (n=3, all D, labeled AMGBR). There are also four samples from the Republic of Altai, Russia from Neolithic and Bronze Age (n=4, labeled BRNRA), none of which is Oriental.

     
  13. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    I mean: look at table S2. They are using also samples from previous studies not just the new ones sequenced for that paper. Whatever the case there is no C in Altai before the Iron Age, neither in the Mongolian nor in the Russian side (which is what we normally call Altai).

     
  14. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    "considering the absolute lack of Oriental lineages, including C, in Central Asia before the Iron Age, the migration route must have been via Siberia (first) and then Eastern Europe."I think that you cannot say that haplogroup C cannot originate from Central Asia because other oriental haplogroups do not originate from Central Asia. Anyway, I am not sure that C is oriental to the same extent as D, and I don't think that Q is from West Asia, as I prefer a more Central Asian origin to haplogroup Q. However, I admit, that we do no know yet what actually happened.I agree with you that ydna N brought D and perhaps the first A haplotypes to the taiga area, but I think that when ydna Q was moving in North-East Asia, haplogroup C and A may have been there right from the beginning. With this I mean that MtDNA C was crossing Eurasia very early, 40-30 kya, and during the Ice Age it disappeared from the arid plains of Central Asia.

     
  15. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Yes, we cannot say that C was in Altai during the Bronze Age, but we cannot either say that people in Altai were harbouring western haplogroups during the Bronze Age and earlier, if the only evidence are these Mongolian Bronze Age samples that are haplogroup D.What is this "BRNRA- Rep. Altai, Neolithic and Bronze Age" study? Where did you get the results?

     
  16. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    "we cannot either say that people in Altai were harbouring western haplogroups during the Bronze Age and earlier"Yes, we can say that because that's exactly the kind of data managed by the paper you just linked to. Check table S2 and follow the references please: n=4, all Western lineages for Bronze and Neolithic Republic of Altai! "Where did you get the results?"The results are reflected in the map but you will have to follow the bibliographic references to find the exact sources and details (I haven't because I trust that the authors did not cheat on this – it's you who seems to be claiming that they somehow altered the data, or whatever you mean because it seems to be a case of confusion on your side).

     
  17. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    "… you cannot say that haplogroup C cannot originate from Central Asia because other oriental haplogroups do not originate from Central Asia". NO ORIENTAL HAPLOGROUPS, NOT C EITHER! Nowhere it is documented a single Oriental lineage in Central Asia, including (non-Mongolian) Altai before the Iron Age. Only in Siberia and Eastern Europe (and Syria it seems per Eva Fernández – haven't double checked). "Anyway, I am not sure that C is oriental to the same extent as D"…I am. M8 in general, CZ in general and C in particular quite clearly originated in NE Asia. Check the data for that region please. "… and I don't think that Q is from West Asia"…Y-DNA Q clearly has most of its basal diversity in Iran and nearby areas. The lineages found in Siberia and America are a mere subset of this West Asian diversity. "I agree with you that ydna N brought D and perhaps the first A haplotypes to the taiga area"…I think that the link with C is much more clear. As for D and A they may also be related but they may well have traveled with other Oriental Y-lineages like O3 or C3, which expanded at a later stage. I just do not know enough to be sure but mtDNA C must have migrated Westward via Siberia and that is exactly what Y-DNA N1 did. "… when ydna Q was moving in North-East Asia, haplogroup C and A may have been there right from the beginning". In NE Asia indeed, not just C and A but also D and surely at least some B (because those are the lineages that were carried to America). But I see no reason whatsoever to thin that happened in Altai or Central Asia, that admixture happened as the Y-DNA Q "clan" migrated Eastward spreading the "mode 4" technology c. 30 Ka BP. "With this I mean that MtDNA C was crossing Eurasia very early, 40-30 kya, and during the Ice Age it disappeared from the arid plains of Central Asia".We have no evidence of C being in Europe before the Epipaleolithic. Most probably it arrived only in that period together with the Y-DNA N1 reindeer hunters of the far North, who benefited from the ice sheet contraction in that time.

     
  18. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Table 3 says:Bronze Age, Mongolia (Altai), number of samples 3 100% East EurasianNeolithic and Bronze Age (Gorny Altai), number of samples 4 100% West EurasianIs it this? A paleogenetic study of the prehistoric populations of the Altai http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS156301100704012It is a pity that the article is not free! They say that:It addresses human remains from burials associated with various cultures which existed in Gorny Altai from Neolithic to Christian era. The findings reveal that craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate Mongoloid and Caucasoid population. It also adds that genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplotypes in Gorny Altai which attest the possibility of a considerable agreement between morphological and mtDNA data in terms of Mongoloid versus Caucasoid affinities.There is also this study: http://128.220.160.141/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/human_biology/v076/76.1ricaut.pdfAccording to Gonzalez paper, there is one haplogroup D in Republic of Altai from Pre Iron period.

     
  19. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    I agree that at least part of hg C came with yDNA N to Europe, but I am not so sure that all of it came, and in particular C1 makes me doubt that connection.

     
  20. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    You say that ydna Q crossed Altai c. 40-30 kya. In your opinion, what MtDNA was there at that time?

     
  21. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    "If there's any relation between Y-DNA R1b and some mtDNA it must be with H. K, X etc. are too rare lineages (especially among Basques) and must be related to Neolithic arrivals,"Yes, indeed! I know there is a big disagreement on the age of R1b in Iberia. If it came first, it came with H. If it came during the Neolithic, it probably came with K and X.However, if it is true that L was present in Iberia in very early date, as it seems it was, I would think that part of it came with E1b-V13. Of course, L may have in part originated also in North Africa.

     
  22. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    The reference is #20:Chikisheva TA, Gubina MA, Kulikov IV, Karafet TM, Voevoda MI, et al. (2007) A paleogenetic study of the prehistoric populations of the Altai. Archaeol Ethnol Anthropol Eurasia 4: 130–142. doi: 10.1134/S156301100704012. "It is a pity that the article is not free!"True but you can still check the haplotypes in fig. 3, what looks like 2 H (or similar near CRS haplotype), 1 U5 and 1 K. "According to Gonzalez paper, there is one haplogroup D in Republic of Altai from Pre Iron period."In fig. 4 there is one dot that looks like that but this is contradictory with the rest of the data presented in the paper, so I suspect it's a coloring error and nothing else. In any case it's still not C.

     
  23. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    At the very least X2, because this lineage made it to America. As for the rest (other possible lineages) I do not know. Maybe some U (U2, U7) and some H (H8, H13, etc.) but just speculating here based on some lineages with modern day Central Asian tendencies.

     
  24. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    How do you know that there is U4 in Taforalt. I cannot find the Kefi study on Internet. I find only this: Grotte des Pigeons, Taforalt 10,000 BC H, HV or U? 11 samples of CRS http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Data/European_genes_table_by_location.htmMesopotamian Mari U4 haplotype mutations are356C223T, 356CIn Taforalt you have CRS. According to my copy of Krasnoyarsk paper, this U4 356C is not found in Iberia or Africa.But I agree that La Braña specimens and the fact that V and U5b are found in big numbers in the North and in Iberia, point to North – Southwest links.

     
  25. Kristiina

    September 14, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    And I think that X2 came only later on. If Q picked up only Eastern MtDNA leaving all Western mtDNA behind, it must have gone through China and East Coast to America. I still think that some of the original mtDNA should be left in East Asia (and America), because there are several Q haplotypes found in East Asia and even in Indo-China.As for the difference between the distribution of D and C in Eurasia, please check these phylogenetic trees Figure 1 and Figure 3http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015214

     
  26. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    The study or rather presentation has vanished from the Internet. But I swear I read it several times back in the day. The U4 result is from contrasting the HVS-I sequences with a recent PhyloTree build. "In Taforalt you have CRS".Not just CRS: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/nafricaadna.shtmlHowever, checking now again cursorily I might have comitted an error or maybe the defining sequence of U4 (transition at 16356) has changed. Maybe I mistook 355 for 356?"According to my copy of Krasnoyarsk paper, this U4 356C is not found in Iberia or Africa".Try reviewing the Chandler, Sykes and Zihao sequences: http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/zilhao/dna2005.pdfYou will need to work with fig. 6, as there's no supp. material nor detailed table… but there it is: "356" in the non-R0 zone (left of the branch described as "[073]", which refers to HVS-II: an R0 defining marker). It was originally classified as just generic "U".

     
  27. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    "And I think that X2 came only later on."You "think" a lot but why? I do not care so much about your subjective opinion but on what is founded: capricious opinions are of no use to science. The only serious way to explain X2 in Native America is by associating it with Y-DNA Q and the NE Asian spread of "mode 4" from Altai. "If Q picked up only Eastern MtDNA leaving all Western mtDNA behind"…Except X2."… it must have gone through China and East Coast to America". Why? It went through NE Asia (plausibly not China as such but we do not know for sure) and once in America it spread to all the continent, including the East coast of North America, of course. X2 is also found in Altai and/or somewhere else in Siberia today. The trail is very clear. "… there are several Q haplotypes found in East Asia and even in Indo-China."But they all belong to a single sublineage, while all the upstream diversity is concentrated in West Asia and nowhere else. See the relevant Wikipedia article for example. "As for the difference between the distribution of D and C in Eurasia, please check these phylogenetic trees Figure 1 and Figure 3"…In the case of C it is very clear that the basal diversity is concentrated in whatever are the red dots. Let's check the legend: "eastern Asian – in red", bingo!The other quite diverse area is the green one, which is… "central and southern Siberian – in green". So that seems to mean East Asia → Siberia → everywhere else. The same can be said about D but it is an even more clear cut case. If you have any doubt re. C, check also where its relatives Z and M8a are found. Of course these are all NE Asian lineages with wide distribution in Siberia and beyond (Native America, Eastern Europe) but it's not like we can deny them the East Asian origin at all. Not even if we try hard.

     
  28. Maju

    September 14, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    BTW the paper has a clear error in the conclusions: "The peopling of northern Asia by anatomically modern humans probably began more than 40 kya, with the first evidence in the Altai region"…We know now for certain it's not the case but that peopling by AMH of South and Central China is much much older, some 50-55 Ka older than that of Altai. We also know that by the time of the peopling of Altai, and some 10-20 Ka before its techno-cultural influence on East Asia, by AMH, mtDNA B4'5 was already to be found near Beijing. What the authors say is biased by the dogma of "modern behavior", which is clearly Eurocentric, quasi-religious and, well, simply wrong, as I have discussed recently.

     
  29. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 10:47 am

    We disagree on many points, but never mind. Many points will get clearer with time."The only serious way to explain X2 in Native America is by associating it with Y-DNA Q and the NE Asian spread of "mode 4" from Altai."I do believe that X2 is Native American and came from Siberia, but for linguistic reasons I believe that there were several migrations to America from Asia, and this one which brought X2 was not the first one, and it may have been brought even by R1b. “But they all belong to a single sublineage, while all the upstream diversity is concentrated in West Asia and nowhere else. See the relevant Wikipedia article for example”Wikipedia says that possible places of origin for yDNA Q are Central Asia, the Indian Subcontinent and Siberia. It also says that Q* is found with low frequency in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan; this is not West Asia to me. I think that phylogeny of Q is not at all clear yet. We have already discussed that in many papers they use undefined Q1* or even P-45 or K-M9. I have seen a more detailed analysis only in a few papers, e.g. Maliarchuk et al 2011, Zhong et al, 2010.According to this new paper ”The First Peopling of South America: New Evidence from Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Q”, mongol Q falls in several different clades: M120, M25, L53, L330, and I have no idea to which clade for example Vietnamese Q belong, and also Tibetan Q could be better analyzed.In Zhong paper, Fig 3 is interesting in this respect (it uses the old nomenclature). It says that with respect to Q1a1, detection is not done in Europe, or in Nepal (?), South Siberia, and Q1a1 is detected in Pakistan, Southeast Asia, Southern East Asia and Northern East Asia. With respect to Q1a2, detection is not done in Europe, Nepal or Southeast Asia, South Siberia, and Q1a2 is detected in Turkey, Iran and northern East Asia. With respect to Q1a3, detection is not done in Europe (except for 1 study), Southeast Asia or South Siberia, and Q1a3 is detected in Europe, Iran, Pakistan, India (?), Southern East Asia and Northern East Asia. With respect to Q1b, detection is not done in Europe, Southeast Asia or South Siberia, and Q1b is detected in Iran, Pakistan and Northern East Asia. In Maliarchuk paper they in fact analyzed south Siberian Q haplotypes.Wikipedia says that the possible place of origin of mtDNA C is Central Asia: “Haplogroup C is believed to have arisen somewhere between the Caspian Sea and Lake Baikal some 60,000 years before present.”I said that if Q left all Western mtDNA behind it must have gone through China and East Coast to America, because it cannot have changed women if there were no East Asian women at sight. I really do not think that Q went through Saha and met "Chinese" B women there when it was getting very cold. As for mtDNA A, Native American A is close to Chukchi A, and NA and Chukchi A is close to Altaian A, so this change of women should have happened with people who are now Altaians, and yDNA should be then N or C3. I am not so sure that C3 was in Altai 30-20 kya (I do not exclude it however) and N is not so clearly linked with mtDNA A. As for mtDNA C1, it is found in East Asia (C1a), but very sparsely (Amur, Japan, Xinjiang, Buryatia) and its age in Native Americans is older. The other branches of C1 are in Europe (ancient Karelians, modern Icelanders), Near-East, India and Siberia. As for mtDNA D, I am enclined to think that it came to America at least in part with yDNA C, but it is more just a hunch.

     
  30. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 10:48 am

    When I look at Derenko phylogenetic trees, I see that the clusters are the following:C1a: Southern Siberia, East AsiaC4a1a: Southern Siberia, East AsiaC4a1b: IndiaC4a2a: Southern Siberia, IndiaC4a2b: IndiaC4b: Southern Siberia, Northeastern AsiaC4 (unspecified): EuropeC4e: Southern SiberiaC5a: Southern SiberiaC5 (uspecified): East AsiaC5b: Southern SiberiaC5c: Southern Siberia, EuropeC5d: Southern SiberiaC7a: IndiaC7b: IndiaC7 (unspecified): East AsiaD3: Central and Southern SiberiaD4b1a1: East AsiaD4b1a2: Northeast Asia, Central and Southern Siberia, East AsiaD4b1b: East AsiaD4b2a + D4b2b: East AsiaD4b2c: IndiaD4b2 (not specified): East AsiaD4b2d: East AsiaD4c + D4d: East AsiaD4e1: America, Europe, East Asia (in particular Korea)D4e3: IndiaD4e2: East AsiaD4e4: Central and Southern Siberia, RussiaD4e5: Central and Southern Siberia, East AsiaD4f: Central and Southern Siberia, East Asia (in particular Japan)D4g + D4h + D4i: East AsiaD4j1: IndiaD4j2 + D4j4 + D4j5 + D4j6 + D4j7: Central and Southern Siberia D4j3 + D4j8 + D4j9 + D4j10 + D4j (unspecified): East AsiaD4 (unspecified): Central and Southern SiberiaD4k’o’p: East AsiaD4l + D4m: East Asia, Central and Southern SiberiaD4n: East AsiaD4q: IndiaD4a: East AsiaD5a’b + D5c: East AsiaD6: East Asia I know that your fundamental point is the migrations from South to North and ancient out of Indo-China migration. I believe that there were more focus areas and multiple routes.

     
  31. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    I'm going to go nuts with unexplained claims like "Native American R1b". Unless you can demonstrate me otherwise, Native American R1 is product of recent European admixture. It has been reported at:→ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180678/ [Bortollini 2003, as P(xQ)]→ http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/11/2161.long [Bolcknick 2006 as mostly R1, but also some P* among the Cherokee]And then recycled by:→ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2584155/ [Singh 2008]The R1 is generally accepted to be recent European admixture, which in some populations is as high as 50% (Y-DNA), what makes total sense considering their history. Nobody ever AFAIK has shown that that R1 among Native North Americans is anything else, such as a distinctive R1b subclade or whatever: it's French (and other) trapper blood, nothing else. These NE NA populations were already very "whitened" 150 years ago, before racist quasi-apartheid became the norm with the trail of tears, Jim Crow and new very large waves of European immigrants.More intriguing is some P(xR1) reported in some populations, notably the Cherokee. This I can't say what it is or what it come from. From memory, a discussion we had back in the day (2006-07 probably) suggested that (based on the STR haplotypes) it appeared to be R2, what would be even more intriguing, as it is a mostly South Asian lineage. But nothing certain because no specific study on Northern NA P(xQ) exists.Unless of course you know something I do not.

     
  32. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Yes, indeed, the problem is that there are so many things that should be better analyzed. We just have to be patient.However, I like new ideas, and I completely forgot in my considerations above the possibility that yDNA Q met yDNA D in Altai, Northern China 30-20 kya, and mtDNA A was taken from these tribes.

     
  33. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    "Wikipedia says that possible places of origin for yDNA Q are Central Asia, the Indian Subcontinent and Siberia".Don't read the text, read the data. Following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29#Subclade_Distribution … : The highest phylogenetic tier: Q splits at the root between:→ Q*: "Found with low frequency in India and Pakistan. Important in Afghanistan, paragroup Q-M242 (xMEH2,xM378) was found at 16.3% in Pashtun people."→ Q1 (P36) ↓The second phylogenetic tier: Q1 splits into:→ Q1*: Found with low frequency in Iran.→ Q1a (MEH2) ↓→ Q1b (L275): West Eurasia and South AsiaThird phylogenetic tier: Q1a splits into (not the most updated phylogeny but anyhow):→ Q1a*: Koryaks, paleo-Eskimo → Q1a1a1 (M120): East Asia→ Q1a1b (M25): Iran, Lebanon, Turkey→ Q1a2 (M346) ↓Fourth phylogenetic tier: Q1a2 splits into (again not well updated):→ Q1a2*: West Eurasia and South Asia→ Q1a2a (L53): NATIVE AMERICANS→ Q1a2c (M323): Yemenite JewsSo maybe it can be argued for Q to be originated from South Asia ultimately (around Pakistan maybe?, between Iran and NW India I'd say) but it clearly has an important West Eurasian distribution at all levels. East Asian and Native American subclades, even if numerically more important, are just subsets of the South & West Eurasian diversity.

     
  34. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    "We just have to be patient (…) I like new ideas"…Patient since 2006? New ideas from 2006? Nothing "new" here and I have been patient on this matter (by force) since some six or seven years ago. I just see no reason to speculate wildly while no new data arrives.

     
  35. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    "Wikipedia says that the possible place of origin of mtDNA C is Central Asia: “Haplogroup C is believed to have arisen somewhere between the Caspian Sea and Lake Baikal some 60,000 years before present.”"Again it's just literature. M8a is almost exclusive of NE Asia, notably Japan. CZ is more widespread but in any case it looks original from that same region. IF there would be no M8a, which is co-basal to CZ within M8, then we could have some doubt but luckily there's no reason for it.

     
  36. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    "I said that if Q left all Western mtDNA behind it must have gone through China and East Coast to America, because it cannot have changed women if there were no East Asian women at sight".Of course. But we do not know for sure to what latitude exactly the Eastern Asian colonization of that time reached to. We know that it was at least North China but it can well have been quite further northwards into the Russian Far East (Eastern Siberia). After all if people were in Central China since 100,000 years ago, they had time to very gradually adapt to colder climates. Also the coasts especially offer excellent resources, so I would expect that some 30 Ka ago, when the "Q clan" began moving eastwards, there were already some native peoples in the Russian Far East, not sure exactly where. Otherwise, I'd expect more resilience of the Q founder effects in those regions (Northern China, Mongolia, etc.) something we just do not see (but much further North).

     
  37. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  38. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  39. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    "So, also M8 seems to have a northern origin"…A Northern origin with East Asia in any case, a NE Asian origin. … "and I see that it is possible that M8 arose in Central Asia".There's nothing in that data supporting such idea. What do you have against East Asia? I mean, really…"The age of M8a variation"…Nobody knows with any certainty: it's just a speculation, an estimate after many semi-arbitrary assumptions. Haplogroup M should be c. 100 Ka old, what implies that M8, just 4 coding region mutations downstream (in a lineage that has evolved as many as 22 in some branches) should be from maybe 80-60 Ka ago, M8a and Z 45-65 Ka and C 35-55 Ka (C1 should be just barely more recent, being the only C subclade with no c.r. mutations: at coding region level C1 is identical to generic C). The dates you copy-pasted are totally out of bounds with my most basic understanding of mtDNA history in Eurasia.

     
  40. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    Altaians harbour four different M8 haplotypes, 1xM8, 3xM8a. The paper says “In addition, several M8 mtDNA sister haplotypes to the CZ-haplogroup were found in Altaians. The majority of these sequences is determined by a transition at np 16319 and forms a distinct cluster, M8a”.The age of M8a variation is 15700-36700 and the age of C variation is 19400-37400. In M8, M8a2 is much older than M8a1. The age of the former is 11200-25800 and of the latter -400-6300, and the older one is the northern one found in particular in Itelmen and Koryak. So, also M8 seems to have a northern origin, and I see that it is possible that M8 arose in Central Asia well before the Ice Age, and then, C1 back-migrated to the West between 20-10 kya.According to Tanaka paper, M8 is found as follows:M80.15% Japanese, 0.47% North China, 0.13% Southeast Asia/South China, 1.67% Chukchi, 0.37% KoreaM8a1.22% Japanese, 4.23% North China, 0.92% China 2, 4.17% Hubei/Quangdong, 1.5% Southeast Asia/South China, 1.47% Kazak/Kirgiz/Uygur, 2.5% Buryat, 1.68% KoreaM8a20.23% China 2, 1.08% Kazak/Kirgiz/Altai, 13% Itelmen, 20.9 KAM Koryak, 1.67% Chukchi, 2.78% Tuvinian, 0.37% KoreaChina 2 means Xinjiang Han, Yunnan Sali, Qinghai Tu, Xi’an Han, Shanghai Han and MongolianI think that it is not without significance that M8 is so strong in Koryak and Chukchi. Both Koryak and Chukchi have haplogroup Q, and moreover Koryak bear this very old haplotype of Q.I really have nothing against East Asia! Why would you think so? The separation between East and West is not at all so clear-cut and the separation between Europeans and East Asians is said to have happened only 40 kya, if I remember correctly…

     
  41. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    "This comment has been removed by the author."Seems I replied before you deleted."And Derenko paper says that Altaians harbour four different M8 haplotypes, 1xM8, 3xM8a".Maybe but not documented in aDNA before Iron Age. How does it compare with, say with regions further East. We always see more diversity in East Asia, as the phylogenetic trees previously discussed show. In fact you are the first person ever, to my knowledge, to question the Oriental origin of M8/CZ. In any case I think you're being extremely partisan in this matter, as if you had phobia to East Asia and tried to dismiss by all means at hand: fighting a battle on it. Is mtDNA C your personal lineage? Why all the fuzz?"I think that it is not without significance that M8 is so strong in Koryak and Chukchi. Both Koryak and Chukchi have haplogroup Q, and moreover Koryak bear this very old haplotype of Q".Proves nothing other than C being in NE Asia since very long ago, something we agree with. Actually what I am saying is that it is much older than the "Q clan" migration eastwards (with mtDNA X2), as are all the other non-X Amerindian lineages A, B, C and D, as are other lineages which did not make it to Sibero-America, like N9, as is surely Y-DNA C3, etc.

     
  42. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    or was it only 30 kya… I have checked so many details that it is enough. Please correct me.

     
  43. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    "This comment has been removed by the author."Again?

     
  44. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    It is true that I did recently National Geographic Geno 2.0 test. They say that I am I5a which is very strange indeed. However, they said that I am 4% Native American and it seems that I have a few typical Native American gene sequences. I think that most of us are genetically very mixed.

     
  45. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    There was an error again! So I am 2% Native American and 4% Northeast Asian!

     
  46. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    "In fact you are the first person ever, to my knowledge, to question the Oriental origin of M8/CZ."I think that I can't be if Wikipedia proposes a Central Asian origin, but please note that I just consider different models. I do not say that it must have happened in a certain way. The truth is sometimes something completely new to everybody and sometimes it is in between different models.

     
  47. Maju

    September 15, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    The Wikipedia generic haplogroup M entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M_%28mtDNA%29), which was largely developed by me (as Sugaar) in 2008 (see history) and mostly expanded and curated by Ebizur (who is extremely knowledgeable of the literature), DOES NOT claim nor propose any "Central Asian origin" for M8. It just mentions it is also found in Central Asia, as happen with many other East Asian lineages (at least A, D, F and G, as well as Y-DNA ones like O3, C3, etc.) If you click the associated external link you get a list of Chinese and Japanese haplotypes, as well as a single Ulchi and the text: "Haplogroup M8 is a small East Asian haplogroup". The brief CZ Wiki-entry reads "Today CZ is found in eastern Eurasian populations. It is most common in Siberian populations".It is true that the C entry says unreferenced nonsense about C being originated between the Caspian Sea and Lake Baikal but again this is just blah-blah. When it comes to the real (and sourced) stuff it says: "Haplogroup C is found in Northeast Asia[2] (including Siberia). In Eurasia, Haplogroup C is especially frequent among populations of arctic Siberia, such as Yukaghirs and Nganasans[3]", what hardly has to do anything with the Caspian Sea, although it may be related to Lake Baikal or some other NE Asian region indeed. The unsourced claim about the origin was added by an anonymous user with IP 82.6.29.26 on February 2009. It has never been sourced and certainly merits removal (but I do not collaborate with Ziopedia anymore).

     
  48. Onur

    September 15, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    The separation between East and West is not at all so clear-cut and the separation between Europeans and East Asians is said to have happened only 40 kya, if I remember correctly…Is 40 or 30 kya recent as a time for the separation of Caucasoids and Mongoloids ("European" and "East Asian" are not the correct terms here; the correct terms would be "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid", but of course you can instead use the somehow more vague terms "West Eurasian" and "East Eurasian" if you think that "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" are "politically incorrect")?! In modern human scales, 30 or so kya is old enough for a Caucasoid-Mongoloid separation time considering the relatively recent origin of modern humans as a whole and their relatively high mobility and fast evolution throughout much of their existence.

     
  49. Onur

    September 15, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    I also agree with Luis that Central Asia is not much of a source of anything but largely a population sink.

     
  50. Kristiina

    September 15, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    Then there is this possibility that yDNA O (or NO) was already there in the North (30-)20 kya with mtDNA B and C (and A and D) when yDNA Q arrived, and most of the O went back to the South during the Ice Age. Of course, it is also possible that yDNA O, C3 and D were all (or some of them) there at that time and receded to the South when it got too cold. Then, YDNA (N)O and D may have made their way to Northern China either from the South (as most people say) or from the West. On the basis of Zhong paper, I would say that C took the southern route to China, but some people have argued for a northern route for C too. If we agree that mtDNA M8 was up in the North 30-40kya as we know mtDNA B was, it must have been accompanied by a Y line. If M8 was not with Q, it must have been with (N)O, D or C. Many possibilities indeed!

     

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