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Very skeptic on claim of Neolithic flow from India to Australia

17 Jan
I feel quite skeptic about the claims held by this paper but in any case it is worth mentioning.
Irina Pugach et al., Genome-wide data substantiate Holocene gene flow from India to Australia. PNAS 2013. Pay per view (6-month embargo, then freely accessible) → LINK [10.1073/pnas.1211927110 ]

Abstract

The Australian continent holds some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the expansion of modern humans out of Africa, with initial occupation at least 40,000 y ago. It is commonly assumed that Australia remained largely isolated following initial colonization, but the genetic history of Australians has not been explored in detail to address this issue. Here, we analyze large-scale genotyping data from aboriginal Australians, New Guineans, island Southeast Asians and Indians. We find an ancient association between Australia, New Guinea, and the Mamanwa (a Negrito group from the Philippines), with divergence times for these groups estimated at 36,000 y ago, and supporting the view that these populations represent the descendants of an early “southern route” migration out of Africa, whereas other populations in the region arrived later by a separate dispersal. We also detect a signal indicative of substantial gene flow between the Indian populations and Australia well before European contact, contrary to the prevailing view that there was no contact between Australia and the rest of the world. We estimate this gene flow to have occurred during the Holocene, 4,230 y ago. This is also approximately when changes in tool technology, food processing, and the dingo appear in the Australian archaeological record, suggesting that these may be related to the migration from India. 

The evidence for this claim is all derived exclusively by statistical inference on autosomal DNA. Suspiciously enough, even if the authors claim admixture levels of as much as 11% and as recent as a mere 4000 years ago, no patrilineage (Y-DNA) nor matrilineage (mtDNA) [correction: see update below] has been ever detected that could be associated with this purported migration. 
Additionally c. 4000 years ago Southern India, the alleged origin of the genetic flow, was already immersed in a flourishing agricultural economy and it looks very strange that the migrants, people who were exchanging crops with Africa for example, would not carry a single element of this new economy to the island continent. Of course this inconsistency could easily be fixed by merely arguing that the molecular clock estimates used tick too quickly, which is a general problem anyhow and therefore no real surprise.
If the hypothesized migration happened earlier, in the Epipaleolithic or Late Upper Paleolithic, then it would also be easier to explain that, with smaller populations, genetic drift could have caused the extinction of whatever Indian uniparental markers that the migrants carried with them initially. It still causes my eyebrows to rise instinctively. 
Even then, if this was the case, we should be able to identify some sort of techno-cultural elements that the migrants may have carried with them, like microlithic stone technologies or whatever. As far as I know nothing of the like exists. 
The only techno-cultural burden that the migrants might have brought with them to Australia would therefore have been the dingo, but this dog has lots of relatives in Island SE Asia, where the authors could not detect any significant Indian admixture.
So the hypothesis looks weak to me. Let’s see the evidence they present:

Above we can see the ADMIXTURE K=4 result, probably not the optimal one (which would probably produce an Australian-specific cluster (mostly but not fully masked as Papuan) and surely two different Indian ones, partly masked as European and Onge affinity) but the one the authors decided to show us as evidence for their hypothesis.
Not only this is surely not the optimal clustering level but also Australian Aborigines are comparatively undersampled, while Indian weight is overwhelming. This is a clear example of how NOT to design a scientifically useful sampling strategy for ADMIXTURE-like comparisons like this (because oversampled populations tend to overshadow the rest just by the weight of numbers). 
As it is, this graph proves nothing but rather suggests that some Indian affinity is part of Australian Aborigine ancestral or founder specificity, when compared with Papuans. This may have many explanations first of which is a mere artifact by reason of a poor sampling and depth design of the experiment. ADMIXTURE is a powerful neutral tool, just a like a test tube or the Geneva particle accelerator, but what we do with it may well not be neutral, either by reason of mischievous manipulation or mere error.
In this case I find the test very poorly designed and executed. If I have some time later in the weekend, I may try to perform an alternative test according to my humble possibilities – I promise nothing however.
A complementary test that the authors perform used Tree Mix. As I have discussed elsewhere, TreeMix often produces very strange results and I do not consider it a reliable tool at all, but for whatever is worth here it is what they got:

While the purported migrations generated by the Tree Mix algorithm appear to suggest a secondary genetic flow from India to Australia (orange arrow at C) the data on which such result is based (D) only gives the most tenuous level (green) of extra genetic affinity between Southern Indians (DRA) and Australian Aborigines (AUA). Meanwhile the highly questionable algorithm identifies Dravidians and North Chinese (CHB) as being genetically very close (blue), when they are not in fact.
So what do I get from this paper? TreeMix’ usual senseless noise and apparent mismanagement of ADMIXTURE, a powerful tool when used properly.
Less than inconclusive, I’d say. But your take of course.

Update: G Horvat (see comments) points me to Kumar 2009 (so far unchallenged at PhyloTree)  for a shared mitochondrial lineage between Australia and India, known as M42. This haplogroup has the following structure (each → indicates a coding region mutation according to PhyloTree, Kumar originally listed a few more):
    • → M42’74 
      • → M42 
        • →→→→ M42a (Australian Aborigines)
        • → M42b (India)
      • →→ M74 (South China, Vietnam, India)
This allows for a potential mtDNA backing of this purported connection, however it is a very small lineage and Kumar claimed that M42 coalesced long ago, in the context of the first colonization of Asia and Australasia by Homo sapiens:

The divergence of the Indian and Australian M42 coding-region sequences suggests an early colonization of Australia, ~60 to 50 kyBP, quite in agreement with archaeological evidences. 

Yet the relatively long stem leading to M42a does allow for a later time-frame of arrival to Australia. Neolithic anyhow looks still most unlikely to me.

Update (Jan 18): Dingo DNA:

An important element to consider here are the origins of the dingo as the Australian wild dog is known. This dog variant suffered a strong founder effect upon arrival to Australia described mainly by two variants of the haplotype A29. This lineage only links to East Asia however, having arrived almost without doubt, via Indonesia from mainland East Asia (either Indochina or China or both).

It is clearly not related to Austronesian expansion and could have arrived either within the early Neolithic of ISEA (arguably Austroasiatic in language) or even earlier. At least one of the papers I checked rather supports a pre-Neolithic introduction and certainly before the archaeologically supported age of c. 3000 years ago.

The Y-DNA of dingos also shows a strong founder effect (only two haplotypes, with overlapping but distinct distributions) and again the most obvious connections seem to be in SE Asia.

See (freely accessible):

Update (Jan 18): It is probably interesting also to mention that Australian Aborigines show no difference with Papuans in their overall amount of Denisovan ancestry. This also appears as contradictory with the idea of significant external admixture, which should have diluted at least minimally that Denisovan component (Indians have none).

Update (Apr 7): A new “working paper” has been published on this matter, sharing my critical stand towards the sloppiness of Puhach’s team but still considering plausible a Holocene gene flow from India. I have commented in a new entry.

     
    122 Comments

    Posted by on January 17, 2013 in Australia, autosomal DNA, India, South Asia

     

    122 responses to “Very skeptic on claim of Neolithic flow from India to Australia

    1. terryt

      January 23, 2013 at 11:17 pm

      "You persuade me with the mtDNA, the Denisovan DNA and the archaeology (or at least two of these three) and I'll believe in your Wallacean hypothesis. Meanwhile not: it's just an artifact caused by irregular research levels". Ebizur has just presented a very convincing piece of research yet you're determined not to accept the evidence he provided. I would have thought this settled it: "62/957 = 6.5% MNOPS*-M526 [3/9 = 33.3% Timor, 9/28 = 32.1% Alor, 5/30 = 16.7% Moluccas, 4/54 = 7.4% Mandar from Sulawesi, 24/394 = 6.1% Flores, 14/350 = 4.0% Sumba, 3/92 = 3.3% Lembata]" So there you have it. That MNOPS is not M, NO, P or S). How do you explain it? To me it tells us that the islands forming a triangle with the sides: Sumba, Timor and Alor/Lembata/Flores have had a pivotal role in the origin of modern human Y-DNA. This triangle lies between Sunda and Sahul. "looking again at the mtDNA angle, Y-DNA MNOPS in Eurasia can be somewhat strongly correlated with mtDNA R (R11-F and B especially in East Asia but many other clades in SE Asia and Australasia, and yet many others in South Asia and West Eurasia)" Yes. And the haplogroup evidence can easily be interpreted as indicating that mt-DNA R also originated somewhere very near that island triangle. But you absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility, for some reason that completely escapes me. Racism? "Undifferentiated? You mean unclassified subclades". OK, split hairs if you must. 'Unclassified subclades' then. But those unclassified subclades are not C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6 or the newly discovered(?) C7. And they are far beterr represented around the South China Sea than they are in South Asia. Once more, as in the example of K*, you are able to conclude that the haplotype moved from the region of very little presence to the region of much greater presence. You are obliged then to invoke 'founder effect' as an explanation, because that is the only way you can make the evidence fit your hypothesis. You also conveniently ignore the opposite possibility because it doesn't fit your hypothesis.

       
    2. Maju

      January 24, 2013 at 7:50 am

      I'm asking for mtDNA, autosomal DNA and archaeological data and you come again with Y-DNA. Please!Look: MNOPS was discovered first as NOP, i.e. studying major continental clades. Only later they realized that all the K in Oceania was inside it also. I'm pretty sure that, as soon as someone finds the marker (that's the hardest task), it will be shown that all Oceanian MNOPS is a single subclade of MNOPS (would be MS) all this discussion will be shown pointless (but you won't admit, just move one without comment). Why I feel so certain about this? Because of mtDNA, etc. Because I look at the matter from all angles and not just Y-DNA. So please spare me your Y-DNA-only conjectures. Thanks."But those unclassified subclades are not C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6 or the newly discovered(?) C7".Not necessarily so. It depends what they have tested for in each study. But anyhow, we agree that C probably originated in SE Asia, just that I tend to think of the mainland (coast?, I can't say) and you gamble with something a bit more ambiguous. "… they are far beterr represented around the South China Sea than they are in South Asia".We already saw the other day that there's also quite a bit of C* in India. This allows for some uncertainty and we must wait for more data or just shrug and write "Tropical Asia" or whatever. "You are obliged then to invoke 'founder effect' as an explanation"…Founder effect is THE EXPLANATION in all cases I can think of everywhere on Earth: someone had to be the founder (several people of course but maybe related or whatever) and they invariably have A MAJOR EFFECT on what came after them. It's not "invoking": it's how things are in fact in population genetics. As soon as you have a punctual migration, you have a founder effect or several.

       
    3. Václav Hrdonka

      January 24, 2013 at 10:09 am

      What about this study:http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S0960982202007893Its from 2002, but the conclusion is the same. When we add the fact with mitochondrial M42 and also the lingvistic support (the lingvists claim, that the similarity between south India and Pana-nyungan consonants system can not be juts a coincidence), I am not skeptic about the migration despite I was when I read the mentioned 2002 paper.

       
    4. Maju

      January 24, 2013 at 12:46 pm

      This issue arose in one of the many recent hot discussions on Oceanian genetics, maybe in this one.The case is that the C* found in that paper was resolved in another paper as C4 and quite distinct in the haplotype structure (more markers usued probably). I'll see if I can find the relevant paper later.

       
    5. Maju

      January 24, 2013 at 7:14 pm

      Hammer 2005, fig. 4-d. C4 had not yet been described but C1, C2 and C3 were. Per the info provided at fig. 2 C* in fig. 4-d is C(xC1,C2,C3), but C1 is drawn as well to the left of the | mark (per fig. 4 legend, because it's a Japan-focused paper). So we see now, three years after Redd 2002 (surely with more SRY markers being used) that the Oceanian C* (C4 from Australia, then still undescribed) hangs from SE Asian C* and not anymore from the Indian C* (part of which must be C5, then also not yet described). Per the "materials and methods" section, some of their sample are from Redd 2002b (your link). So we can safely discard the appearance of agglomeration of Asutralian and Indian C* as per Redd 2002 as an artifact caused by some limitations of the data. Also Australian C* (in both papers) is now described as C4, a distinct haplogroup within C.

       
    6. terryt

      January 29, 2013 at 3:10 am

      'Founder effect is THE EXPLANATION in all cases I can think of everywhere on Earth: someone had to be the founder" Of course. But you use it all the time, whenever the evidence cannot be manipulated to fit your pre-existing belief, not just where we're considering the first inhabitants. And often in cases where it is by no means necessary to consider 'founder effect' as being the explanation at all. "I'm pretty sure that, as soon as someone finds the marker (that's the hardest task), it will be shown that all Oceanian MNOPS is a single subclade of MNOPS (would be MS)" I'm fairly sure it won't be. You 'desire' it to be so to make the evidence fit your belief. And it seems now that what we would at present call K1-P60, K2-P79, K3-P261 and K*-M9 are all part of what you refer to as 'MNOPS'. That's a whole lot more South Wallacean/Melanesian Y-DNA haplogroups. "Because of mtDNA, etc. Because I look at the matter from all angles and not just Y-DNA". Why don't you just take the time to check out the distribution of mt-DNA R? "We already saw the other day that there's also quite a bit of C* in India". Did we really? Isn't most Indian Y-DNA C in fact C5-M356? As you say, 'Indian C* (part of which must be C5, then also not yet described)'.

       
    7. Maju

      January 29, 2013 at 10:45 am

      "But you use it all the time, whenever the evidence cannot be manipulated to fit your pre-existing belief"…I think that's a diversion you use instead of discussing the facts for what they are. If you go to each particular case, we can discuss them in detail, but if you just make generalizations… then nothing good can come out, just imprecission and confusion. "I'm fairly sure it won't be".My logic is based on several facts:1. NO and MNOPS (initially NOP) markers have been already found, substantially altering the K tree.2. Y-DNA ultimately is always branched in pairs (and MNOPS does not follow yet this).3. mtDNA (nor autosomal one) suggest an "out of Wallacea/Australasia" process at all. "Why don't you just take the time to check out the distribution of mt-DNA R?"What's the "problem" with mtDNA R? Be specific, please: doing otherwise is just . So far it looks as originating in South Asia, where basal diversity is maximal (alternatively you can argue for an Indochina origin, highly dubious, but not beyond Wallace Line). "Did we really?"Yes we did. "Isn't most Indian Y-DNA C in fact C5-M356?"Many tribes have C* as dominant. Browse the blog back please.

       
    8. terryt

      January 30, 2013 at 9:56 am

      "1. NO and MNOPS (initially NOP) markers have been already found, substantially altering the K tree". The information Ebizur supplied regarding MNOPS in Wallacea indicates that all the K in that region contains the M525 mutation that defines MNOPS. The K could be K1, K2 or, unlikley, K3. So at least most 'K' is MNOPS. "2. Y-DNA ultimately is always branched in pairs (and MNOPS does not follow yet this)". I agree that finer detail may reveal NOP branched off first but we don't yet 'know' that, so in the meantime we should use the data as we have it instead of making things up. "3. mtDNA (nor autosomal one) suggest an "out of Wallacea/Australasia" process at all". I firmly disagree. The phylogeny of mt-DNA R certainly does fit with an out of Wallacea/Australasia' process. It's just that you refuse to see it. "Many tribes have C* as dominant. Browse the blog back please". I'm sorry. You'll have to lead me to it again. As far as I'm aware most Indian 'C*' has now gone, replaced by C5.

       
    9. terryt

      January 30, 2013 at 10:12 am

      "The information Ebizur supplied regarding MNOPS in Wallacea indicates that all the K in that region contains the M525 mutation that defines MNOPS. The K could be K1, K2 or, unlikley, K3. So at least most 'K' is MNOPS". The map in this paper shows the K in Wallacea as simply 'K'. We can now be sure it is MNOPS: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209020673

       
    10. Maju

      January 30, 2013 at 11:40 am

      1. Not all K. At least LT is not. Anyhow, it is not really relevant for my hypothesis: all Oceanian K/MNOPS would be part of a local subclade (would be "MS" for lack of a better name).2. "I agree that finer detail may reveal NOP branched off first"…Not at all what I meant. Than NOP was discovered first (and only then found to be actually the larger MNOPS) only speaks of the greater level of research dedicated to these larger continental clades. It says nothing of which branched out first. In my hypothesis it'd be (maybe) MS (including all Oceanian K)."… so in the meantime we should use the data as we have it instead of making things up". You can't restrict yourself to Y-DNA and the rest of the data does not suggest AT ALL that there was any "out of Wallacea" migration. Would it be otherwise, I would have agreed with you long ago – but nope.3. "The phylogeny of mt-DNA R certainly does fit with an out of Wallacea/Australasia' process".Not at all: only one (out of 16) sublineages is from Oceania. Maybe there's some other in Wallacea (can't recall right now) but the vast majority is from continental Asia, the plurality from South Asia."I'm sorry. You'll have to lead me to it again".I have less time than I used to have but we had a lenghty debate back then, so you should know what I'm talking about. Right now I'm out of home and therefore do not have my bookmarks at hand, sry.

       
    11. Maju

      January 30, 2013 at 11:55 am

      I do not question that at all: what we don't know is how it is organized phylogenetically downstream of MNOPS, of the M525 mutation. My hypothesis (to be tested by whatever research when it comes) is that all Oceanian MNOPS is part of a distinct subclade of MNOPS, let's call it MS or MNOPS1 or whatever you wish.In other words that K(xLT,xNO,xP) is a single subclade, at least in Oceania. But we will have to wait till someone researches it: I simply lack the means.

       
    12. terryt

      January 31, 2013 at 12:13 am

      "I have less time than I used to have but we had a lenghty debate back then, so you should know what I'm talking about. [Many tribes have C* as dominant]". I think I remember it now. Our main argument centred on whether Munda had come into India from further east. The tribals with C* in them were all Munda- or Austro-Asiatic-speaking. The C* had come in from further east with O2a1a. "My hypothesis (to be tested by whatever research when it comes) is that all Oceanian MNOPS is part of a distinct subclade of MNOPS" It could be. But the only reason you're suggesting that is because that is what you want it to be. How would it be if Australian K*-M9 is shown to have branched off first? "1. Not all K. At least LT is not" Certainly LT is not part of MNOPS. But The K*-M9 in Auistralia is MNOPS. As far as I'm aware the K*-M9 near the LT memebrs has not been phylogenetically placed. It may belong to some pre-KMNOPS haplogroup and related to LT or it may not. "Than NOP was discovered first (and only then found to be actually the larger MNOPS) only speaks of the greater level of research dedicated to these larger continental clades". Yes. And that makes it unlikely there will be any major changes in the near future. I await developments of course. "only one (out of 16) sublineages is from Oceania [phylogeny of mt-DNA R]". Who said anthying about 'Oceania'? "Maybe there's some other in Wallacea (can't recall right now)" Open your eyes, Maju.

       
    13. terryt

      January 31, 2013 at 1:29 am

      OK. I'll do it for you. I know you've seen this: http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.co.nz/2013/01/munda-as-intrusive-to-india.htmlPerhaps not my comment there: "interestingly the mt-DNA R-derived haplogroups R7 and R8 are both said to be especially associated with Munda-speaking populations". That supports the analysis of mt-DNA R I made at Wikimedia: http://ourorigins.wikia.com/wiki/Mt_R_east_to_westWhere I wrote: "So here we have the pattern of R's expansion through India revealed by the geographic distribution of the basal haplogroups: Basal R entered Northeast India from somewhere further east. R7 formed somewhere round that entry point and, after a period of 8 mutations, moved south through eastern India. Basal R did the same. R8 coalesced from basal R in Orissa, and carried on, after 5 mutations, as far south as Sri Lanka and up the Godavari River". "only one (out of 16) sublineages is from Oceania" I list 18 R lineages in the above link. But we now have the resources to let us see which part of India has the greatest basal R diversity. And compare it to basal diversity in regions of comparable extent. After all we would expect greater diversity to be at least partly a function of greater extent. We can now be reasonably sure that R7 and R8 coalesced east and west of the Ganges mouth respectively and were carried west to their present geographic margin by the expansion of Munda-speaking people. So they are 'East Indian' haplogroups. R6 is also present along much of the east coast of India but is spread along the Ganges River and up it as far as Kashmir. That's three haplogroups coalescing in East India. That leaves the three other R mt-DNAs as 'West India': R30, R5 and R31. Outscored by Southwest Asia: U, R2'JT, R1, R0 and R3. I agree that region may be larger than either of the Indian halves. But including haplogroups to the east of India in Southeast Asia and Australia the score is: East India: 3. R7, R8 and R9. West India: 3. R5, R6 and R30. Southwest Asia: 5. R0, R1, R3, U and R2'JT. Australia: 2. P and shares R12'21 with Malay Negritos. Lesser Sunda Islands: 3. R22, R23 and R14 (the last in New Guinea and the Nicobar Islands. Throughout island SE Asia and into the mainland: 2. R11'B and R9. So what boundaries do you wish to use when considering 'basal diversity'?

       
    14. Maju

      January 31, 2013 at 1:04 pm

      Re. Y-DNA C* in India: It was as easy as searching just a bit into the 'South Asia' label in this blog: THIS ENTRY!!!.I wrote then:Haplogroup CAs the authors note, 90% (66/74) of all the C-M130 samples belong to C5 (M356), while the rest (8/74) tested negative for both C5 and C3 (M217), so I guess we are here before at leas one other subhaplogroup of C (because the likelihood of being Japanese C1 or Australasian C2 or C4 is practically zero).The eight C* individuals are scattered (table S1) among several groups (all of which also display C5, as well as F*) but notably concentrated among the Piramalai Kallar (4/5 within C), which are a DLF group.Besides C*, which may well be a remnant of either the early Eurasian expansion or of the first backflows from SE Asia (a likely not-so-likely candidate for the origin of macro-haplogroup C), the very notable presence of C5 among tribals and some farmers may well indicate that the origin of C5 is in South Asia, even if the clade also has some presence in Central and West Asia.Haplogroup C has a high variance in this study (0.80), greatest among DLF (0.89) and HTF (0.81).That entry also includes, in the appendix, the two aforementioned older C trees of Hammer 2006 and Redd 2002. You may therefore want to add to your list of "favorites" or "bookmarks" for later reference on Y-DNA C.

       
    15. Maju

      January 31, 2013 at 1:11 pm

      "How would it be if Australian K*-M9 is shown to have branched off first?"It would be very interesting to know about it. Sincerely I am as interested as you are or more about the real, yet to be properly described, phylogeny of K/MNOPS in Oceania. It does not exist yet, so I have to base my inferences on other data (archaeology, autosomal DNA and mtDNA) and none of these suggest even slightly a back-migration into mainland Asia from that part of the World."Who said anthying about 'Oceania'?"Oceania, Wallacea… same thing for Prehistory purposes. Wallacea is actually intermediate between Oceania and Asia and is at least occasionally included in the Oceanian region of Melanesia, so you should have no qualms about I including it in Oceania.

       
    16. Maju

      January 31, 2013 at 1:41 pm

      It is very difficult for me to follow your logic here. All I can say is that while I do appreciate a relatively notable duality between North and South in South Asia, possibly caused by an arid Deccan in the Pleistocene (and/or arguably Neolithic inflows later on), I don't really perceive a clearly cut West-East divide in either subregion, at most some gradation.Besides your division is totally unreal and arbitrary re R subclades.Hence I have no idea why you would split "India" in West and East. My count is as follows (reference):South Asia: 6 (R5, R6, R7, R8, R30, R31)*West Asia: 2 (R0, R3)Both: 3 (R1, R2'JT, U)[total West: 11]Mainland SE Asia (incl. South China): 2 (R9/F, R11'24'B)NE Asia: nothing specific but also found branches of the two aboveIsland SE Asia (incl. Malaysia and Wallacea): 2 (R22, R23)Oceania: 1 (P)ISEA & Oceania: 2 (R12'21, R14)[total East: 7]Total clades 18. Estimated centroid somewhere in South Asia, probably in the course of the Narmada or Ganges (my best hunch is lower Ganges). *Notice that most of these South Asian lineages are found East and West equally but rather to the North – details from the wiki:→ R5 Across Central India except SE Coast. Especially SW coast and Sri Lanka. Present only in the most westerly of the Madhya Pradesh tribals: the Bhil. → R6 Uttar Pradesh, Kashmir and SE coast. Also Pakistan. Present in all three Madhya Pradesh tribals.→ R7 Especially in NE India and Andhra Pradesh. Frequent in Munda speakers. Not present in the most westerly Madhya Pradesh tribals, the Bhil, but present in the other two.→ R8 Present in Andhra Pradesh, Orissa, Maharashtra. Also especially in South India and Sri Lanka. Perhaps originated in Orissa. Not recorded in the Sahariya, the northernmost of the Madhya Pradesh tribals, but present in the other two.→ R30 Not listed in Madhya Pradesh tribals but widespread in South Asia, especially NW and Central. Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra.→ R31 Of the Madhya Pradesh tribals recorded only in the Bhil, the most westerly. Present in Rajasthan, Southern India and Sri Lanka. Most simply look too widespread to be considered as part of any arbitrary subregion of the South Asian subcontinent.

       
    17. terryt

      February 1, 2013 at 12:40 am

      "As the authors note, 90% (66/74) of all the C-M130 samples belong to C5 (M356), while the rest (8/74) tested negative for both C5 and C3 (M217)" So C* is common' in India, you say. Basically confined to the Piramalai Kallar, who could have come from anywhere into India. "the real, yet to be properly described, phylogeny of K/MNOPS in Oceania. It does not exist yet" Perhaps the Oceania set has yet to be defined but K as a whole is particularly interesting. Haplogroups have peeled off it all the way from just out of Africa to Melanesia. "Oceania, Wallacea… same thing for Prehistory purposes". What are you on? There is no overlap between the two regions. Wallacea is quite a small region within modern Indonesia. Oceania is the region beyong New Guinea. Much of Oceania was uninhabited until long after people had reached Wallacea. "Wallacea is actually intermediate between Oceania and Asia and is at least occasionally included in the Oceanian region of Melanesia" I have never ever heard of 'Melanesia' being included in 'Wallacea'. Where did you get that idea from? And we're talking specifically 'Southern Wallacea' in relation to mt-DNA R. That is the thin line of islands that stretch from the Malay Peninsula to northwest Australia centred on the little triangle formed by Sumba, Timor and Flores/Alor. In area the whole lot is far smaller than the whole of India, even if you include all that water. In that thread of islands we have 5 basal R haplogroups: P at one end, R12'21 at either end and R14, R22 and R23 in the middle. Besides which we have R9 and R24'B extremely close by. "It is very difficult for me to follow your logic here". Is that on purpose? "I don't really perceive a clearly cut West-East divide in either subregion, at most some gradation". Look again then. And the division you offer is completely irrational. You combine south and west Asia (presumably to increase your numbers) and then divide the Far East into four separate regions (presumably to limit the numbers). That is hardly a logical way to go about things. "Most simply look too widespread to be considered as part of any arbitrary subregion of the South Asian subcontinent". Because you are reluctant to divide India into separate regions because it would expose your faulty logic. I agree that R6 is particularly widespread but R7 and R8 definitely have an eastern India origin. R5 and R31 are almost certainly not of eastern Indian origin. That leaves R30. Widespread but especially in central India and the northwest. Yet you can say, 'Most simply look too widespread to be considered as part of any arbitrary subregion of the South Asian subcontinent'. Open your eyes.

       
    18. terryt

      February 1, 2013 at 12:52 am

      Sorry. I've just noticed this comment: "*Notice that most of these South Asian lineages are found East and West equally but rather to the North" Doesn't that absolutely scream, 'migration via the Ganges'? Exactly as I suggested at Wikimedia.

       
    19. Maju

      February 1, 2013 at 1:13 am

      No, C* is not confined to just that population at all. You are not even looking at the data. Do things right, please.K has not "peeled off" either. It split in two clades, one centered in Pakistan and the other maybe in SE Asia. Etc.There's no reason to think that Wallacea was populated long befores Oceania (Sahul). Oceania includes Australia, etc., for your information.It is notMelanesia the one included, sometimes, in Wallacea but vice versa.I did not combine WEA and SA to increase anything but to emphasize the perception of geographic distribution and, therefore, the logic behind the centroid: almost double number of basal subclades West than East of the Ganges Delta.

       
    20. Maju

      February 1, 2013 at 1:25 am

      I have nothing against such idea.

       
    21. terryt

      February 1, 2013 at 1:44 am

      "C* is not confined to just that population at all. You are not even looking at the data". Maju. The data says just 8 of 72 Y-DNA C's were C*. And those 8 were 'concentrated among the Piramalai Kallar'. That doesn't leave very many for anyone else. And all of the C* were 'scattered (table S1) among several groups (all of which also display C5, as well as F*)'. I note that Ebizur pointed out on your earlier post that the C* were all associated with aristocratic groups and could have arrived from the northeast with the Neolithic. It which case they would be related to C% without actually having C5's defining mutation. "K has not 'peeled off' either. It split in two clades, one centered in Pakistan and the other maybe in SE Asia. Etc" OK. So you're excluding IJ from K. IJ formed in SW Asia when IJK split in two. The LT formed in Pakistan when K split in two. The, as far as we can tell from out current state of knowledge, K(xLT) split all to pieces in SE Asia. To me it is simple to comprehend. "There's no reason to think that Wallacea was populated long befores Oceania (Sahul)". I could go along to some extent with the northern Solomon Islands portion of Oceania, but it's doubtful it was settled until some time after people had reached Australia. The remainder of Oceania, beyond the southern Solomon Islands was definitely not settled until Lapita/Austronesian times, some three or four thousand years ago. "I did not combine WEA and SA to increase anything but to emphasize the perception of geographic distribution" And then you ignored the geographic distribution in India. Why? "almost double number of basal subclades West than East of the Ganges Delta". And the Ganges Delta is a significant boundary in the distribution of mt-DNA R because …?

       
    22. Maju

      February 1, 2013 at 12:27 pm

      … "the C* were all associated with aristocratic groups and could have arrived from the northeast with the Neolithic".No!!!You are already slaving me again (do your damn data-mining work instead of ranting so much!!!): C* in Tamil Nadu is found:→ Paliyan n=1 (foragers, also lots of C5)→ Thoda n=1 (foragers)→ Vanniyar NTN n=1 (agriculturalists, also lots of C5)→ Cape Nadar n=1 (agriculturalists)→ Piramallai Kallar n=4 (agriculturalists)None of them is "aristocratic" at all: the foragers belong all to the most genuinely local "class" (HTF, froagers of Tamil or Malayalam language) and the agriculturalists to the oldest and more locally rooted of all them (DLF – dry land farmers). The "aristocratic" Brahmin-related irrigation farmers and Artisan-Warrior classes are lacking this paragroup and not rich in C5 either (although some specific groups do have this one).

       
    23. Maju

      February 1, 2013 at 12:38 pm

      "So you're excluding IJ from K".Per ISOGG. Indeed. If you meant IJK, say so. You could also say F for all I know as well."And then you ignored the geographic distribution in India. Why?"Because I don't agree with it. I think it's arbitrary in most cases.Even if it would be half-correct, it would only help to more precisely positioning the phylogenetic centroid of R, which I already said should be in the Lower Ganges. Visualization: as I described the matter the scales have 11 and 7 weight units, so it leans to the West. To get them balanced, we have to move two weights to the "East" platter. So just pick your favorite most eastern-leaning South Asian R basal subclades and voilá: 9:9. Where is the centroid then, the edge of the rebalanced scales? In Central-East India (same result as I suggested above more or less). Now, Terry, you will have to play thimblerig again but no matter how much you move the cups, the ball is stuck to that geography. But I beg you to memorize this well and don't bother me again with this issue unless NEW DATA changes things. "And the Ganges Delta is a significant boundary in the distribution of mt-DNA R because …?"The Ganges Delta (its Easternmost edge in fact) is the significant geographic and ethnic boundary between South and SE Asia. Look at any map: Bengal (Bangladesh) borders Burma/Myanmar. Why would you even ask this?

       
    24. terryt

      February 2, 2013 at 3:04 am

      "C* in Tamil Nadu is found:→ Paliyan n=1 (foragers, also lots of C5)→ Thoda n=1 (foragers)→ Vanniyar NTN n=1 (agriculturalists, also lots of C5)→ Cape Nadar n=1 (agriculturalists)" And that proves C* is widespread and common in India? Come on. "If you meant IJK, say so". Semantics, yet again. IJK is part of K. IJK is the name of the K branch that first split from F. It later gave rise to LT and still later to MNOPS. Simple? "it would only help to more precisely positioning the phylogenetic centroid of R, which I already said should be in the Lower Ganges". So we're half in agreement. You believe R originated in the Lower Ganges, I believe it entered South Asia from the Lower Ganges. The fact that R appears to be spread along the Ganges suggests the region was unexploited before R either colesced there or arrived. According to your usual logic that should have been impossible. The first arrivals should have dominated. "as I described the matter the scales have 11 and 7 weight units, so it leans to the West. To get them balanced" Why do we have to get them 'balanced'? Simply to fit your belief. "unless NEW DATA changes things". We don't need 'new data'. It should be sufficient for you to properly examine the old data. "The Ganges Delta (its Easternmost edge in fact) is the significant geographic and ethnic boundary between South and SE Asia". But not for mt-DNA R. Check it out.

       
    25. Maju

      February 2, 2013 at 9:53 am

      [sarcasm]It demonstrates whatever you wish. Confusing IJK and K is mere "semantics", sure, and not another example of your non-existant lack of any interest for science or even keeping your interlocutor informed of what you actually mean. Of course your interlocutor is to blame because he/she should have been able to imagine that when Terry says K he means IJK or maybe MNOPS depending on the circumstance but he is always right in any case. How could he be wrong?! Isn't he the great man who spelled Wallacea on the map?! The one who insists on having people migrating through Siberia naked and without even adapting their skin pigments to low radiation needs? The one for whom all humans are so extremely equal that a Denisovan a Neanderthal and a Sapiens… are exactly interchangeable like the cups of a thimblerig, all equally empty. Precision? What for. Terry is always right, loosely so. Scales, balance? What is that for? Naturally Terry will gladly pay you 6 for the value of 24. Don't insist in getting all your bill paid… he is always right no matter what maths might say. Instead of deducing where things may have happened, what for?!, Terry paints on the map inspired not just but God Itself but by Car Sagan's Garage Dragon and the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well… his ink blots may be capricious and based on almost nothing at all but dare not to question them because they are inspired by the Holy Trinity of Fairyland themselves. If Maju's disbelief still gets him counting the weights, it is no doubt because he keeps believing wrongly in the science of weight. To the pyre with him, we do not need data much less to ponder it carefully. And Maju burns in this pyre of words while a crowd of imps all miniature copies of Terry dance around crying: "Data?! We don't need any data!"[/end sarcasm][/end discussion]

       
    26. terryt

      February 3, 2013 at 12:34 am

      "Confusing IJK and K is mere "semantics", sure, and not another example of your non-existant lack of any interest for science or even keeping your interlocutor informed of what you actually mean". OK. To avoid confusion I will in future refer to the haplogroup in question as 'Y-DNA F(xF*,F1,F2,F3,G,H) from now on. I'm sure you really know exactly what I mean but I'll use that terminology from now on. Would you be content with F-M522? "Isn't he the great man who spelled Wallacea on the map?!" You had never heard of it, so stop complaining. "The one who insists on having people migrating through Siberia naked" I have never claimed they were 'naked'. "without even adapting their skin pigments to low radiation needs?" East asians today have hardly adapted 'their skin pigments to low radiation needs', so you're talking rubbish yet again.

       
    27. Maju

      February 3, 2013 at 12:47 pm

      Why don't you just use the name given by ISOGG? We all do, with the very debatable exception of MNOPS/K(xLT). Secondly, I prefer to discuss the particulars of IJK after discussing F and K. Otherwise it is very difficult to understand. It's very important to understand F very particularly: its diversity, its global relevance, its obviously South Asian origins… "East asians today have hardly adapted 'their skin pigments to low radiation needs'"…Actually they are extremely pale in many cases, even if they live in high-radiation zones at the same or lower latitude than Mediterranean Europe. Also their known pigmentation alleles are different in almost all cases from those of West Eurasians, what clearly indicates two northwards migrations, as if all the other DNA did not speak enough volumes on their own right. I'm tired of your irrational fanaticism. Very much tired! I believe I deserve better, sincerely.

       
    28. terryt

      February 3, 2013 at 10:40 pm

      "Why don't you just use the name given by ISOGG? We all do, with the very debatable exception of MNOPS/K(xLT)". To everyone else it would have been obvious that my original comment (but K as a whole is particularly interesting) refered to was the basal F haplogroup called 'IJK' in ISOGG. Surelky 'IJK' includes 'K'. That is why the momenclature includes the letter 'K'. It was you who chose to confuse matters. "Secondly, I prefer to discuss the particulars of IJK after discussing F and K." Why? If we consider the whole IJK haplogroup we see immediately that, as I said originally, 'but K as a whole is particularly interesting. Haplogroups have peeled off it all the way from just out of Africa to Melanesia'. "It's very important to understand F very particularly: its diversity, its global relevance, its obviously South Asian origins…" F has by no means an obviously South Asian origin. There is no reason at all to assume that either Y-DNA G or F3 originated there. Neither is it true of IJK when IJ and K (per ISOGG) most likely split to the west of South Asia. "Actually they are extremely pale in many cases" In 'some' cases. Evenks, Mongolians, Tungus and Inuit can hardly be described as 'pale'. "I'm tired of your irrational fanaticism". I think the above shows you are accusing the wrong person of 'irrational fanaticism'. Try looking in a mirror.

       
    29. terryt

      February 3, 2013 at 11:07 pm

      "The Ganges Delta (its Easternmost edge in fact) is the significant geographic and ethnic boundary between South and SE Asia". At last we are getting somewhere. You have always maintained that humans would easily have been able to cross that region on their way to australia by using the boats they were easily able to manufacture. I see now that you agree with me: the Ganges Delta was a considerable obstruction to eastward movement. Regarding your comment at the other blog where we are currently arguing. I see very few examples of conditional support for any statements you have made here either.

       
    30. Maju

      February 3, 2013 at 11:40 pm

      "F has by no means an obviously South Asian origin".Count the basal subclades and put them on a map. Then dare to repeat that before a mirror without laughing, you little hypocrite.As for IJK: it has two subclades: one apparently coalesced in West Asia (IJ) and the other from South Asia or farther East (K), so again I feel strongly inclined to locate its global origins at South Asia (because of parental weight)K would probably South Asian as well for the same reasons as above but reversed in direction.MNOPS (unless it can be proven that P diverged first, what for now is just a conjecture) appears to be from further East than South Asia but so far its substructure is poorly understood so we can still get important surprises. Whatever the case all those clades clearly hang from South Asian F and are scattered in or around SA. "Evenks, Mongolians, Tungus and Inuit can hardly be described as 'pale'".Japanese and Koreans are often paler than Europeans, just not even a fraction as reddish (they seem to lack enough pheomelanin). They live at Mediterranean-like latitudes however. There's nothing comparable to Northern Europe in terms of warmth combined with low radiation input (because of latitude but also cloudiness) and that's why the most extreme cases of stable quasi-albinism are found in those parts of Europe, and only there: they needed it for long term survival. You should know all this: everyone interested in anthropology should know this.

       
    31. Maju

      February 3, 2013 at 11:50 pm

      "You have always maintained that humans would easily have been able to cross that region on their way to australia by using the boats they were easily able to manufacture".I still think that way. Stop trying to manipulate my words, please. "… the Ganges Delta was a considerable obstruction to eastward movement". You are totally misinterpreting my ideas, on purpose surely. The Ganges Delta, itself included, is where South Asia seems to end ethnically. It is a very densely populated region however and has signs of occupation in spite of its sedimentary nature (which tends to hide everything) since at least the Upper Paleolithic. [Terry: oh "UP" I can take this piece of info and use it as weapon for my argumentation just by removing "at least" and declaring it "absolute" by divine grace][Maju: shit! I can foresee he will do that but I can't do much other than partake with everybody of my vision… so they are warned beforehand]As I was saying: SE East Asia or the transition region leading to it begins not in the Ganges Delta but East of it. The hill country or whatever… I don't know enough. All I know is that they are less populated than the two Bengals and I can only imagine that such a fertile region was also highly populated in the past, even if there was no farming yet (why not: basic farming is just replacing natural fertility by domesticated one). Why would I need to explain all this again? Good question.

       
    32. terryt

      February 5, 2013 at 12:41 am

      "I still think that way. Stop trying to manipulate my words, please". I'm manipulating nothing. But I'm confused. What do you actually think. 'humans would easily have been able to cross that region on their way to australia by using the boats they were easily able to manufacture' or that 'The Ganges Delta (its Easternmost edge in fact) is the significant geographic and ethnic boundary between South and SE Asia'. You can't have it both ways. "You are totally misinterpreting my ideas, on purpose surely". You have not made yourself very clear as to what you actually believe. You change what you believe depending on what position you are currently taking. "The Ganges Delta, itself included, is where South Asia seems to end ethnically". And genetically. "It is a very densely populated region however" Very densely populated today, yes. Ever heard of agriculture? "has signs of occupation in spite of its sedimentary nature (which tends to hide everything) since at least the Upper Paleolithic". In the Delta? I don't think so. Evidence? "I can only imagine that such a fertile region was also highly populated in the past" Imagine whatever you wish. That doesn't prove your imagined scenario correct. "SE East Asia or the transition region leading to it begins not in the Ganges Delta but East of it. The hill country or whatever…" And virtually all connection between SE Asia and northeast India is 'from' that hill country, not 'into' it. "Count the basal subclades and put them on a map". That might have some relevance if you were prepared to compare regions of comparable extent. You are against such consideration, for some strange reason. "As for IJK: it has two subclades: one apparently coalesced in West Asia (IJ) and the other from South Asia or farther East (K), so again I feel strongly inclined to locate its global origins at South Asia (because of parental weight)" What 'parental weight'? Two haplogroups in 'West Asia' and one in 'South Asia'. IJ could easily be the 'parental haplogroup'. "MNOPS (unless it can be proven that P diverged first, what for now is just a conjecture)" Yes, and as far as I know you are the only one to conjecture such. "so far its substructure is poorly understood so we can still get important surprises". We may do, but unless the phylogeny is hugely altered it is reasonably evident that the haplogroup diversified considerably and rapidly somewhere near Wallacea. "Whatever the case all those clades clearly hang from South Asian F and are scattered in or around SA". Which clades? MNOPS? come off it. IJK hangs of F, and looks to hang off it to the west of India. As do the basal F haplogroups G and F3. "Japanese and Koreans are often paler than Europeans" But usually much darker. And I must confess I don't recall seeing any 'paler than Europeans' when I spent three weeks there in the 1980s. Of course they may have changed since then. "There's nothing comparable to Northern Europe in terms of warmth combined with low radiation input" Certainly not in 'warmth'. Although Japanese may 'live at Mediterranean-like latitudes' the climate is far from being 'Mediterranean'. Anyway, what has warmth got to do with pale skin?

       
    33. Ebizur

      February 5, 2013 at 10:26 am

      Maju wrote,"Japanese and Koreans are often paler than Europeans"Often paler than what Europeans? As terryt has commented already, I do not recall having met any Japanese or Korean who is paler than I, and I am an individual of European ancestry who interacts with members of these ethnic groups on a daily basis. A translucent complexion essentially does not occur among Mongoloids (though it might be found in some individuals from some predominantly Mongoloid populations who have significant recent Caucasoid admixture). Even the palest Mongoloids have an ivory or creamy white, opaque complexion.terryt wrote,"Certainly not in 'warmth'. Although Japanese may 'live at Mediterranean-like latitudes' the climate is far from being 'Mediterranean'. Anyway, what has warmth got to do with pale skin?"Most of Japan is subtropical or practically so (e.g. one can grow oranges in one's backyard up to about the border between the Kanto and Tohoku regions). The mountains facing the Sea of Japan coast of Honshu receive a great deal of snowfall, but it is still not especially cold. On the Pacific coast, snow is rare, with perhaps a few centimeters of it falling once a year if at all. On the other hand, the northern island of Hokkaido has a notably more continental, temperate climate.However, Japan receives most of its precipitation in the summer, and the difference in air temperature and humidity between summer (hot and humid) and winter (dry and moderately cold) is great, so it is definitely not a Mediterranean climate. I suppose one might say that the climate in Japan is similar to, but generally more mild and marine-influenced than, the climate along the eastern seaboard of the United States.Korea, like Hokkaido, generally has a much more continental and temperate climate than most of Japan, but the island of Jeju off the southwest coast of the peninsula is rather subtropical, and a lot of citrus is grown there, too.

       
    34. Maju

      February 5, 2013 at 6:48 pm

      Well, if you're Northern European you may well not be the standard by which Europeans are measured, much less if we look to a time previous to the Medieval Agricultural Revolution (in which advances like the heavy plow allowed for a demographic explosion in Northern Europe, while the Mediterranean remained mostly unaffected). In any case, I will agree that the shade of white is not the same, but it is white anyhow. You emphasize a "translucence" that I can hardly identify (I emphasized pheomelanin's reddish or "anti-yellowish" tendency instead – note: human skin tones are all yellow-orange by hue but vary in the exact hue, some being redder and others yellower, they also vary in darkness, of course, brown or 'black', and paleness, beige, cream or 'white'). Maybe we are both right (never thought of "translucence" as a skin quality, admittedly). These differences are caused because, genetics dixit, both populations had apparently separate, distinct, evolutionary paths to paleness, what reinforces the idea of two distinct South to North migrations, one in the East and one in the West. It does not seem like either population had the need to incorporate (even via introgression) the genes evolved by the other for light skin tone. We are therefore before a case of convergent evolution. "Anyway, what has warmth got to do with pale skin?"Nothing. Solar radiation has and therefore latitude.

       
    35. Maju

      February 5, 2013 at 7:18 pm

      "What do you actually think. 'humans would easily have been able to cross that region on their way to australia by using the boats they were easily able to manufacture' or that 'The Ganges Delta (its Easternmost edge in fact) is the significant geographic and ethnic boundary between South and SE Asia'. You can't have it both ways". I do. The buffer zone appears to be mostly East of the Ganges in what they call NE India (Assam, etc.) and maybe some areas of Burma. There's no obvious genetic transition zone (if not extremely mild and diluted) in the Ganges Delta, that's because it was (most likely) always much more densely populated than neighboring regions of SE Asia, so any random inputs were easily diluted to quasi-homeopathic levels. The "border", the buffer zone, is the "hill country" not the Ganges Delta."Ever heard of agriculture?"You're talking to a former gardener, please. Seriously: you seem to somehow imagine that a fertile area that now hosts lust orchards could not in the past, when the ecological balance had not even been disrupted yet, host lust jungles and swamps that provided a lot of food for Paleolithic standards. ""Count the basal subclades and put them on a map".That might have some relevance if you were prepared to compare regions of comparable extent".It does not matter: just use a map without regions: a blank map of Asia… locate the dots and estimate the centroid produced (you can use a geometrical method if you wish to be more precise). You cannot reject the laws of geometry and they produce a centroid in Central-East India invariably. → IJK: It is not clearly centered in West Asia. Even if you only consider LT (obviously centered in Pakistan) and IJ (coalesced in Iran plausibly), you still are between the two regions. And then the rest of K (MNOPS) pulls to the East very clearly and strongly (as does their ancestor F), so the origin of F, IJK and K are all probably in South Asia. G, IJ and MNOPS are "prodigal sons" so to say – albeit quite successful ones admittedly. You understand it better looking at the whole phylogeny than at particular lines in isolation in any case… unless you wish to entrench yourself in particular pre-conceived models. [→ P as possible "first son" of MNOPS] "… as far as I know you are the only one to conjecture such". And as far as I know too, don't get too hot about that. Still plausible, considering the geography of related mtDNA clade R. But time will tell in any case. "… unless the phylogeny is hugely altered"…Just well defined. MNOPS has to split (like every Y-DNA clade if we'd knew all the info hidden in the male chromosome) in pairs, which is the phylogenetic order of those pairs remains to be determined but the star-like structure we know as of now is for sure not ultimately correct (not correct enough, that's it), not good enough to say anything, much less with the emphasis you do. Why? Because you have no support from other lines of evidence, notably mtDNA. "I don't recall seeing any 'paler than Europeans'"Paler than some Europeans? I bet you do. Either that or you don't know enough the real European diversity. "Anyway, what has warmth got to do with pale skin?"Nothing, not directly. Solar radiation does. And at high latitudes in winter Solar radiation is too low for children's brains (and other organs) to develop properly because of lack of vitamin D synthesis in the skin, if that skin is too dark. It is the most obvious evolutionary adaption in humans since the OoA, you should be more familiar with it, especially as I have written on it in the past (and you were a reader, or at least a furious commenter, sometimes I doubt you read enough, of this blog already).

       
    36. terryt

      February 5, 2013 at 11:56 pm

      "I do [have it both ways]. The buffer zone appears to be mostly East of the Ganges in what they call NE India (Assam, etc.) and maybe some areas of Burma". Yes. The combined ganges/Brahmaputra Delta and the jungle-clad mountains of Northeast India combine to form a formidable barrier. "'The "border', the buffer zone, is the 'hill country' not the Ganges Delta". Not so. It is the combination of the two that forms the barrier. "that's because it was (most likely) always much more densely populated than neighboring regions of SE Asia" Very unlikely to be the case. Far more likely is that it was more recently colonised from nearby regions as boating improved and farming was introduced. "so any random inputs were easily diluted to quasi-homeopathic levels". Doesn't fit the evidence. The Ganges Delta does not have any specifically 'Ganges' haplogroups. That is surely unlikely to be the case if it has been long occupied. "host lust jungles and swamps that provided a lot of food for Paleolithic standards". Jungles and swamps are not very productive for humans with a Paleolithic lifestyle. Clear the jungle or drain the swamp and grow crops: yes, productive. "Why? Because you have no support from other lines of evidence, notably mtDNA". The mt-DNA does provide evidence. It's just that you have made up your mind not to see it. "just use a map without regions: a blank map of Asia… locate the dots and estimate the centroid produced" The 'centroid' is not relevant if the movement has been predominately in one direction. And when we place the dots for both Y-DNA MNOPS and mt-DNA R we find those in SE Asia, especially in Southern Wallacea, are particularly close to each other. "IJK: It is not clearly centered in West Asia. Even if you only consider LT (obviously centered in Pakistan) and IJ (coalesced in Iran plausibly), you still are between the two regions". Again you're willfully ignoring the phylogeny. IJ branched off before LT did. There is absolutely no reason to believe IJ and LT formed in the same region. That's just another example of your Garden of Eden Syndrome. "then the rest of K (MNOPS) pulls to the East very clearly and strongly" And that clade didn't form until some time after both IJ and LT had at least started their development some way to the west of where MNOPS coalesced. You can't use MNOPS to tell you where either IJ or LT coalesced. "MNOPS has to split (like every Y-DNA clade if we'd knew all the info hidden in the male chromosome) in pairs" I certainly will not be surprised if it is eventually shown that NO and P branched off some little time before the remainder of the haplogroup reached Wallacea. But even that would place its origin no further west than somewhere in Sundaland. "the origin of F, IJK and K are all probably in South Asia. G, IJ and MNOPS are 'prodigal sons' so to say – albeit quite successful ones admittedly". One 'fact' we know is that F has an ultimate origin, through CT, in Africa. Now, what would we expect to see in a haplogroup that had moved from Africa to Australia? Precisely what we see in Y-DNA F and IJK. A progressive branching along the route. "You understand it better looking at the whole phylogeny" Which you insist on constantly ignoring. "unless you wish to entrench yourself in particular pre-conceived models". Yes. And it is very apparent that you have entrenched yourself in a particular model: some sort of Garden of Eden theory where everything emerged from a single region at a single time.

       
    37. terryt

      February 6, 2013 at 12:16 am

      "I am an individual of European ancestry who interacts with members of these ethnic groups on a daily basis". That's interesting. Where do you live? I have quite a bit to do with several young Koreans here in New Zealand so I too am familiar with their skin colour. "Often paler than what Europeans?". Japanese women and men who work in offices will be paler than European men who work in the fields. I admit I saw people in Andalucia who were as dark as many Japanese, but these people usually claimed to be Gypsies. "And at high latitudes in winter Solar radiation is too low for children's brains (and other organs) to develop properly because of lack of vitamin D synthesis in the skin" So you believe that Inuit and Chukchis are intellectually inferior. "you should be more familiar with it, especially as I have written on it in the past" I have been aware of the theory for years, and I remain unconvinced. After all today people in the northern latatudes wear clothing yet don't suffere extremely from lack of vitamin D. "You emphasize a 'translucence' that I can hardly identify" Have you ever actually seen a person from Japan, Korea or even China? "The mountains facing the Sea of Japan coast of Honshu receive a great deal of snowfall, but it is still not especially cold". I was there in Winter, and I found it cold. Mind you I'd just come from Australia. But the region I lived in there had Winter snow. "They live at Mediterranean-like latitudes however". New Zealand is at the same latitude south as Japan and Spain are north, and geologically much the same as Japan. That is one of the main reasons I visited that country, to compare it to NZ. I live exactly opposite Cadiz. The climate here is not 'Mediterranean'.

       
    38. Maju

      February 6, 2013 at 7:55 pm

      Most of your comment is one-liner opinions. Your problem: you know what I think and therefore I won't comment further. Some of them however appear to show confusion re. what I mean. For example:"IJ branched off before LT did. There is absolutely no reason to believe IJ and LT formed in the same region".LT is just one of two sequentially mentioned references for K, which is the phylogenetic "brother" of IJ. As I said above, the other reference is MNOPS, which appears to have branched further East, so the centroid of K is between Pakistan and SE Asia and therefore the centroid of IJK may be estimated (with uncertainty) to be near Pakistan. "The 'centroid' is not relevant if the movement has been predominately in one direction".Debatable if the centroid should be corrected for that (something I argued for in the past and you rejected vehemently, I must say – you swing a lot and very capriciously). But first of all in any case we must determine the centroid, which if needs correction must be argued starting from that point: the raw geometrical centroid. "And [MNOPS] didn't form until some time after both IJ and LT"…We can't say that. It is perfectly possible, in pure theory at least, that pre-IJ and pre-LT lingered as small ("private") lineages before expanding and forming the haplogroups as we know them now. I won't lean strongly on one or the other direction because I lack clear evidence (looking only at the Y-DNA phylogeny) but, looking at other evidence (mtDNA especially), I'd say that this scenario is quite possible at least for IJ and G (and maybe also LT). Unsure in any case. "Now, what would we expect to see in a haplogroup that had moved from Africa to Australia? Precisely what we see in Y-DNA F and IJK. A progressive branching along the route". I would not expect that (unless you cling to the "very rapid coastal migration" hypothesis in its fastest and most purely coastal form, what I believe you do not) and that is not what we see in F in any case: we see a clear expansion not in successive ordered branches from West to East but first of all in South Asia and only then around it. End of what is worthy discussing.

       
    39. terryt

      February 6, 2013 at 10:02 pm

      "End of what is worthy discussing". It is obvious you still don't understand basic genetics, nor do you have any wish to understand the subject. "LT is just one of two sequentially mentioned references for K, which is the phylogenetic 'brother' of IJ". LT is very much a 'younger brother' to IJ. Check ISOGG. Haplogroup K underwent a further series of mutations (M9, P128, P131 and P132) after IJ and before LT. The mutation M526 then led to K(xLT) before that haplogroup split into K1, K2, K3, M, NO, P and S. I grant that this may not represent a star-like expansion, but it surely represents a fairly rapid one. "We can't say that [[MNOPS didn't form until some time after both IJ and LT]. It is perfectly possible, in pure theory at least, that pre-IJ and pre-LT lingered as small ('private') lineages before expanding and forming the haplogroups as we know them now". Perfectly possible. But less so in the case of LT. It has just the downstream mutations L298/P326 and L811 from K9x(IJ) but IJ has awhole string of them, and a further string within each of I and J. But as 'private lineages' there is no evidence they moved anywhere from where they first coalesced before they 'expanded'. The only reason you demand that they did is to make the evidence fit your pre-conceived belief. And there is certainly no evidence at all to support your seeming belief that IJ migrated out of South Asia at some time. "the centroid of K is between Pakistan and SE Asia and therefore the centroid of IJK may be estimated (with uncertainty) to be near Pakistan". The 'centroid of K' is goint to tell you nothing. 'K' is a series of haplogroups with a series of centroids. To get any realistic view you have to consider the centroid of IJK separately from the centroid of KLT (or whatever you care to call the haplogroup K(xIJ) and then the centrioid of MNOPS, taking care to give all 7 of the haplogroups within that group equal weight. "Debatable if the centroid should be corrected for that (something I argued for in the past and you rejected vehemently, I must say – you swing a lot and very capriciously)". I am extremely doubtful I have ever done that. Care to remind me where I did it? "I would not expect that (unless you cling to the 'very rapid coastal migration' hypothesis in its fastest and most purely coastal form" Absolute rubbish. A rapid migration would hardly leave time for new haplogroups to arise along the route. We would expect a string of haplogroups to be more likely to appear if the migration was particularly slow. "and that is not what we see in F in any case: we see a clear expansion not in successive ordered branches from West to East but first of all in South Asia and only then around it". Once more that is absolute rubbish. You can only claim to see the expansion as having started in South Asia if you have made up your mind in advance that that is what you want to see. We actually do see successive ordered branches from West to East. F is scattered along the same route as K. From west to east: G, IJK, F3, (all three west of India) H, F1, F3, (all three in India) and F2 (in East Asia). I would have thought that was simple, and obvious. The other day you wrote: "MNOPS has to split (like every Y-DNA clade if we'd knew all the info hidden in the male chromosome) in pairs" Why did you decide to confine that idea to just the Y-DNA? Surely the same should apply to mt-DN. Or might that conflict with one of you pet beliefs about mt-DNA M?

       
    40. Maju

      February 7, 2013 at 7:44 am

      "LT is very much a 'younger brother' to IJ".LT is not a "brother" to IJ, K is. LT would be a "nephew" (but sometimes nephews can be younger than uncles, more so in our context)."[LT] has just the downstream mutations L298/P326 and L811 from [Kx(IJ)]"…No. We do not know that: we only know of those SNPs but there could be many others yet to be researched. You are over-deducing from data that is necessarily incomplete."The 'centroid of K' is goint to tell you nothing"…I am of the opposite opinion. And then you go with "extremely doubtful", "absolutely rubbish" and other opinionated and surely unfounded claims that are such a drain to me that I refuse to even read them. Ciao.

       
    41. Ebizur

      February 7, 2013 at 10:53 am

      Maju wrote,"LT is not a 'brother' to IJ, K is. LT would be a 'nephew' (but sometimes nephews can be younger than uncles, more so in our context)."I think you must have intended to note that "sometimes uncles can be younger than nephews." This is correct, and it reminds me of a certain peeve of mine regarding people who argue for "multiple colonizations" of regions like Australasia or East Asia because of the co-occurrence in populations of those regions of clades that are widely separated on the present phylogenetic trees.For example, many people seem to be fond of the idea that populations whose Y-DNA belonged exclusively to D-M174 or C-M130 (or both) had spread throughout East Asia at a very early date and were subsequently replaced by populations whose Y-DNA belonged exclusively to O-M175. The only motivation that I can imagine for such an argument is the idea that O-M175 must have originated more recently than D-M174 or C-M130 because O-M175 is a sister clade of N-M231 and both these clades are downstream of F-M89, K-M9, and MNOPS-M526.However, as I have pointed out in one of my recent comments on this blog, the Y-STR variance of Australasian-specific subclades of MNOPS-M526 is equal to or greater than the variance of Australasian C-M130. Likewise, considering O2a1-M95 or O3-M122, subclades of O-M175, each exhibits far more variance than D-M174 or C-M130 in East Asia. O-M175 is also the most widespread and frequently occurring Y-DNA haplogroup in East Asia, so it should be considered as the best candidate for the first modern humans to reach East Asia in any such "multiple waves" model, not as recent colonists. (Of course, another subclade of O-M175, O2b-SRY465, exhibits much less Y-STR variance, and thus probably has expanded relatively recently from an ancestral population that has been bottlenecked somehow.)In order to argue otherwise, one must accept at least one of the following two propositions:(1) All measures of Y-STR variance (and hence all estimates, even relative ones, of TMRCA based on the molecular clock theory) are utterly useless. (2) Haplogroup O-M175 somehow has managed to accumulate Y-STR variance in some undetermined location outside of East Asia, maintain that Y-STR variance throughout the course of a massive population movement and colonization of East Asia, and subsequently be completely eradicated from its erstwhile homeland.

       
    42. Maju

      February 7, 2013 at 8:19 pm

      "I think you must have intended to note that "sometimes uncles can be younger than nephews".Right. :D"For example, many people seem to be fond of the idea that populations whose Y-DNA belonged exclusively to D-M174 or C-M130 (or both) had spread throughout East Asia at a very early date and were subsequently replaced by populations whose Y-DNA belonged exclusively to O-M175".You are right in questioning this if presented as a supposed "fact" and in such simple terms. We cannot easily gauge that. I personally lean towards such hypothesis on various logical grounds (for example O sits between the two main areas of C distribution: Australasia and NE Asia, what could be well explained by this model, similarly it sits between the three main areas of D: Tibet, Japan and Andaman) but I admit I cannot be sure about it, certainly not on "age" reasoning alone. "In order to argue otherwise, one must accept at least one of the following two propositions:(1) All measures of Y-STR variance (and hence all estimates, even relative ones, of TMRCA based on the molecular clock theory) are utterly useless". I generally disdain TRMCA estimates, as you probably know. As for the variance, I'm not sure it can be properly gauged in "absolute" terms, i.e. comparing it between haplogroups with only remote relationship, but still may be of some use (at least preliminary estimation) within a particular clade. Why? Because simply one haplogroup, for whatever reasons (maybe an ancient bottleneck) has less of such diversity. Another reason may be that for random causes or hidden genetic internal logic the STR markers relevant in one or another clade are different (and as most STRs have been first tried in the most widespread clades, such as R, O, J or E, they work poorly for rarer ones). So I find your comparison of STR variance between C and O in Oceania to be an intriguing curiosity but with unclear meaning, if any at all. I hope that you understand my viewpoint.

       
    43. terryt

      February 7, 2013 at 11:01 pm

      "LT is not a 'brother' to IJ, K is". You're squirming away from considering the evidence, again. My comment was in reference to your comment the other day, 'LT is just one of two sequentially mentioned references for K, which is the phylogenetic 'brother' of IJ'. We can surely agree that LT and IJ are relations, and LT formed later than did IJ. Call LT 'brother', 'nephew' or whatever. That is hardly the point. "LT would be a 'nephew' (but sometimes nephews can be younger than uncles, more so in our context)". I agree that the final mutation that gave rise to IJ could be later than the final one that gave rise to LT. But the mutation that separated IJ from K is obviously earlier than the one that separated LT from KMNOPS. It is reasonabl;e to suppose that the original separation occurred in two separate regions. The only reason you would insist on them having separated from the line that was to give rise to KMNOPS in the same region as each other is the belief in some Garden of Eden scenario of human expansion. "We do not know that: we only know of those SNPs but there could be many others yet to be researched. You are over-deducing from data that is necessarily incomplete" A typically ridiculous comment from you. Would you have been satisfied if I'd written 'at least' in front of 'downstream mutations'? I doubt it. You are absolutely committed to avoiding the issue. My comment as to the relationship between IJ and LT with regard to the series of mutations leading to each haplogroup still stands. "I am of the opposite opinion [The 'centroid of K' is goint to tell you nothing]" I presume you hold the same opinion regarding the centroid of Y-DNA C2. And what about T? Does you opinion hold for all haplogroups?

       
    44. terryt

      February 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm

      "The only motivation that I can imagine for such an argument is the idea that O-M175 must have originated more recently than D-M174 or C-M130" It is perfectly possible for a haplogroup to expand long after it has coalesced. But usually in that case the haplogroup will have a long tail of mutations. I realise Maju disagrees vehemently with that idea in that he believes long tails develop while a haplogroup is on the move. I think that scenario very unlikely. Haplogroups tend to diversify while on the move. On the other hand I actually agree with Maju here, 'simply one haplogroup, for whatever reasons (maybe an ancient bottleneck) has less of such diversity'. "the Y-STR variance of Australasian-specific subclades of MNOPS-M526 is equal to or greater than the variance of Australasian C-M130". As I recall that diversity of C did not include Australian C4-M347. That haplogroup's inclusion would almost certainly have increases C's diversity in the region. I'll point out that I'm not claiming necessarily that C and K did or did not arrive in Australia together. "Likewise, considering O2a1-M95 or O3-M122, subclades of O-M175, each exhibits far more variance than D-M174 or C-M130 in East Asia". But that variance in O as compared with C may be a product of more recent expansion of the first and a much smaller population base for the other two. "Haplogroup O-M175 somehow has managed to accumulate Y-STR variance in some undetermined location outside of East Asia" I doubt that anyone seriously considers that O originated anywhere other than in East Asia. However it may have accumulated its considerable diversity in a reasonably small region with a large population before expading greatly through the remainder of East Asia. "O sits between the two main areas of C distribution: Australasia and NE Asia, what could be well explained by this model" Believe it or not. I agree with Maju here. Mind you I doubt that C was widespread through East Asia before O began its expansion. So O hasn't actually 'replaced' C, but mainly moved into previously unexploited regions within East Asia. The same situation would apply to D.

       
    45. Maju

      February 8, 2013 at 12:23 am

      Yo cannot simply count SNPs, unless the whole Y chromosome (of a sizable sample for each clade) has been studied (not just sequenced but all the phylogenetically relevant SNPs found and named). Y-DNA genetics may be heading that way in the near future but it has not yet achieved such precision at all. By the moment we are just contemplating a small sample of all the accountable SNPs in all lineages, but in some (better studied) lineages larger than in others. A namesake of you (main page) has used a (very limited in sample size) such full-sequence count approach and has reached to this tree (whose chronology should be re-calibrated so CF splits c. 80-74 Ka. and CF'DE, aka CT, splits c. 90-125 Ka.). IF the results are valid (what we can't be sure of all cases yet because the haplogroups are only so-well represented but looks like a reasonable progress particularly for this endless debate), then the order of age of coalescence of haplogroups within F is (ages in brackets according to my recalculation after calibrating CF to 80Ka):1. K 2. P and IJ (55 Ka)3. NO (50 Ka)4. O (45 Ka)5. J, I, I2, O2, O3, R (40 Ka)6. Q, R1b, LT, N (25-20 Ka)It's not yet "rocket science" but in what regards to age estimates it is indeed the most serious attempt I have ever seen, failing only in the calibration. I presume that T.D. Robb is concerned about, for example, the very old age that A0 would get if applying my kind of calibration, but it'd be still close to the overall age of the species (I get 250 Ka and the generally acknowledged age of H. sapiens is c. 200 Ka – it may also be a barely pre-Sapiens lineage reincorporated upon the migration to West Africa, assuming that the age estimate is correct). Whatever the case, that is a serious attempt at Y-DNA age estimation based on ALL SNPs (he's using the 1000 genomes project) and not what you're doing with only the ISOGG reported SNPs. "I presume you hold the same opinion regarding the centroid of Y-DNA C2. And what about T? Does you opinion hold for all haplogroups?"Of course it does and in fact I do accept that the origin of C2 (but not C2a) is surely at Wallacea. I have never considered the possible centroid of T but in preliminary view it looks Pakistani.

       
    46. Maju

      February 8, 2013 at 12:34 am

      Actually, considering what I say in my reply below to Terry re. this tree (based on 1000 genomes project samples), C and NO look contemporary (c. 50 Ka with my re-calibration of the chronology), with O being only slightly more recent (c. 45 Ka). So they may well have expanded in a similar window and process. D looks more recent (c. 25 Ka). I'm willing to swing in this case although the evidence would still need some refinement, as only R1b, O3 and E1b have really large samples.

       
    47. Ebizur

      February 8, 2013 at 2:33 pm

      Maju wrote,"Actually, considering what I say in my reply below to Terry re. this tree (based on 1000 genomes project samples), C and NO look contemporary (c. 50 Ka with my re-calibration of the chronology), with O being only slightly more recent (c. 45 Ka). So they may well have expanded in a similar window and process. D looks more recent (c. 25 Ka). I'm willing to swing in this case although the evidence would still need some refinement, as only R1b, O3 and E1b have really large samples."Which subclades of C-M130 have been represented in this data set? As I have noted previously, the East Asian subclades C3-M217 and C1-M8, each of which has a recent TMRCA compared to most major subclades of O-M175 (but rather similar to the TMRCA of O2b-SRY465), seem to be more closely related to each other (and to South Asian C5-M356) than either C3-M217 or C1-M8 is related to Australasian C2-M38. Perhaps C-M130 as a whole might exhibit internal variance equal to or greater than that of MNOPS-M526, but the fact is that the major subclades of C-M130 in East Asia, C3-M217 and C1-M8, seem to coalesce to a common ancestor much more recent than the common ancestor of all extant derivatives of O3-M122, for example. In other words, the common ancestor of C3-M217 and C1-M8 (and probably also C5-M356 IMHO) was a single individual in a single population somewhere (also in East Asia?) long after O3-M122 had diversified into a large number of subclades (implying that O3-M122 was already present in significant numbers over a wide area).The only way to harmonize this fact with a scenario in which C-M130 has preceded O-M175 in the course of the spread of modern humans into and across East Asia is to assume that all other branches of C-M130 have been wiped out (perhaps as a direct result of the spread of populations bearing subclades of O-M175), a single branch of C-M130 somehow has managed to survive (either in isolation or by admixing into another population), and the descendants of this single C-M130 individual have diversified into modern C1-M8, C3-M217, etc. (However, to the detriment of the scenario of survival of C-M130 in East Asia by minor admixture into a larger population, why does C3-M217 occur alongside representatives of N-M231 or Q1a-MEH2 in Siberia and alongside representatives of Q1a3-M346 in the Americas, where no representatives of O-M175 are to be found in the vicinity?)Basically, the diversity of C-M130 in modern East Asian populations is inconsistent with a hypothesis of assimilation of diverse and widespread "East Asian aborigines" bearing C-M130 by a later wave of expansion by O-M175-bearing populations. The diversity of C-M130 in modern East Asian populations is rather consistent with a hypothesis of "introgression" from a now essentially extinct population of Out-of-Africa humans that existed in at least one part of East Asia at a very ancient date (other relatives of the population that served as the source of this introgression must have been utterly obliterated).

       
    48. Ebizur

      February 8, 2013 at 2:34 pm

      Logically, there is no way to escape the conclusion that C-M130 in East Asia reflects one of the following:(1) low-level introgression from a now-extinct population of prehistoric East Asia as described above (the "introgression hypothesis" — note that this is the only hypothesis that is consistent with the proposition that C-M13O Y-DNA in East Asia reflects assimilation of a local population that preceded the now-dominant O-M175 populations in East Asia) (2) an instance of minor gene flow from a C-M130-bearing population into a widespread, well-established population of East Asia that mainly bore some subclade of O-M175 due to an immigration event (the "miscegenation" or "(Australasian?) immigrant hypothesis")(3) an expansion subsequent to near-extinction of C-M130 in a polymorphic population due to a stochastic process (the "genetic drift hypothesis")In any of these cases, why are representatives of C3-M217 also found in Siberia and the Americas as I have mentioned above? Multiple independent migrations from an isolated C3-M217-bearing source population onto three different substrata: one bearing O-M175 subclades in East Asia, one bearing N-M231 or Q1a-MEH2 subclades in Siberia, and one bearing Q1a3-M346 subclades in the Americas? Who were these C3-M217-bearing men, where on Earth did they emigrate from, and why were they so popular among foreign women? Considering both the centroid of the geographical distribution of modern representatives of C3-M217 and the present location of their distant relatives in C1-M8, the common ancestor of C3-M217 and C1-M8 should be located in or near pre-Jōmon Japan, with the emigration of some C3-M217 individuals to East Asia, Siberia, or the Americas being roughly contemporaneous with the incipient Jōmon Period.

       
    49. Maju

      February 8, 2013 at 7:57 pm

      "Which subclades of C-M130 have been represented in this data set?"I can't say for sure but I know it is based on the 1000 genomes project, which lacks any Australian Aborigine sample, so I guess that C4 is absent but not C1, C2 and C3 (and maybe others like C5 and C*). Ask the author directly better. "why does C3-M217 occur alongside representatives of N-M231 or Q1a-MEH2 in Siberia and alongside representatives of Q1a3-M346 in the Americas, where no representatives of O-M175 are to be found in the vicinity?"Possibly Q1a met C3 (as well as the main NA matrilineages) in far NE Asia, where O is mostly absent. Even I'd dare suggest that C3 is a secondary arrival to America, probably related to the Na-Dene expansion (restricted to parts of N. America which largely overlap with Na-Dene areas), what allows for even a more belated incorporation of C3 to the Native American genetic pool. In any case I think that, if O and C expanded in about the same process and chronology, present distribution may just reflect a variety of founder effects, whose causes are effectively random for us. Notice also that in nearly all scenarios Y-DNA has some tendency to concentrate into few lineages, what may be due to sexual selection in the broadest sense (i.e. particularly successful men can have more offspring than women, causing a cumulative effect through time, which results in more male lineages being "drifted out" than female ones in conditions of low population densities – generally these pruned or reduced lineages tend to be the less common ones to begin with: nothing intrinsic about the lineages, just their initial numbers determine their chances of long term survival). In any case the extremely low densities of Siberian populations in the Paleolithic must be considered as allowing extreme genetic drift (pruning of clades, mostly the rarest ones), so maybe C3 (and others?) were first incorporated only to be pruned some time later (for example at the LGM, which must have been very challenging for those peoples). Some more notes:… "implying that O3-M122 was already present in significant numbers over a wide area".Why not? If O and C expanded in the same process it would seem obvious that O dominated in numbers since the beginning. Not sure about the "single individual" issue however: it seems a bit exaggerated, but a question of initial numbers or proportions surely yes.

       
    50. Maju

      February 8, 2013 at 8:15 pm

      Assuming that Robb's findings are correct and therefore that C and NO expanded in a similar time-frame, I lean to explanation #3. The others may also make some sense and be even complementary, not exclusive, but I can't say. Again assuming that Robb is correct, I'd say that pre-C, like mtDNA pre-N and Y-DNA pre-D appear to be originally low sized survivors (maybe there were some others) from the primary early Eurasian genetic pool, which was dominated by Y-DNA F and mtDNA M. However there was a swing at a second moment in the relevance of mtDNA (N, and especially R, gaining much importance for some reason, probably in relation to Y-DNA MNOPS' own success), which is not mirrored by Y-DNA C and D (although they clearly kept enough numbers somewhere to eventually have their own localized expansions in the East Eurasian outskirts).A possible cause of pruning may have been the Toba supervolcano, which must have caused major difficulties to survivors, marking a before-and-after boundary in the Eurasian genetic pool without destroying it altogether. But regardless of the particulars I reconstruct the following:1. An initial population A dominated by yF and mtM.2. A secondary major population B near SE Asia (Bengal?), which may have benefited from Toba somehow, dominated by yMNOPS and mtN and especially mtR, later incorporating some other lineages here and there (notably yIJ in the West, more diverse ones in the East).Y-DNA C and D would be also Eastern survivors (mostly or totally pruned in South Asia by Toba?) which were incorporated to the wider MNOPS (mostly O in East Asia) expansion, succeeding only at the margins of that expansion and being reduced in the core instead.

       

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